The Meat Mafia Podcast

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Loneliness at some point in your life is a requirement for delusional confidence to be born.

It's the core truth. 100%.

Being an outsider is what it really is.

Because being an outsider is the only way you can kind of develop it. Where no one can bother you.

I talk about, old relationships and, painful vacations. You're at this incredible resort, five stars, pina coladas, sitting by the pool, looking at the most beautiful view. But you're just in the most insane amount of pain. Because deep down, you know, you're You know that you haven't done shit.

Brother. Good seeing you, my man. Good seeing you. Let's go. Always great coming back to New York and getting to, uh, getting to just connect. And I feel like I always learn so much from our conversations. And for the listener, the podcast was episode 143.

It was your [00:01:00] second or third trip to Austin, I think at that point, it was February of 2023. And it was a really interesting inflection point because your Instagram account had absolutely exploded with a lot of the writing that you had been doing. And also animation videos cultivated around obsession.

And I think this is going to be in this episode is going to be an amazing timestamp for our listeners. Because being a close friend of yours since that podcast, I would say that you've had this incredible snap. and have gone from talking about obsession to fully embodying obsession. And I'm really excited to dig into this with you today.

A lot has changed since that time. It's only been like a year and a half. Yeah. But it feels like I'm in a completely different life. And, uh, yeah, excited to go talk about it. Yeah, I think a lot of people, you hear this cliche quote that you can change your entire life in 12 months or six months. And I think they hear that, but they don't actually embody what that means.

And I think you and I, and probably certain listeners that are [00:02:00] listening to this episode, can confidently say that's absolutely true. And I feel like I've almost gotten a first hand seat into the way that you've developed as a human being and as a man, um, Because I was at the St. Jude's marathon spectating, um, and seeing you do that first marathon and fully send it, I could see in your eyes after you did that race that there was something very different about you.

And I didn't know what it was going to lead to, but I was excited to see the journey that was going to ensue. So maybe that's a good starting point for our listeners just talking about your decision to sign up for the marathon. the experience of the race and what's ensued since then. Yeah, sure. So I got into running, I would say about a year ago, last summer, 2023 was when I started to start going on more runs, but it was still pretty inconsistent.

I wouldn't have called myself a runner. I was going a few times a week. And then, in the fall, I started to push myself a little more, and, uh, our friend Danny Miranda was signed up for this Memphis [00:03:00] Marathon, because, um, it's like a random small marathon, but his, uh, I think his dad ran it, and that's why he wanted to do it.

And so, I was like, screw it, I'll sign up. And The moment I signed up, something happened, where like, uh, a switch was flipped, and I was just on YouTube all day looking at videos, how do I run, how do I pace, what workouts do I do, how do I do this, and I trained hard, I only signed up like a month and a half before.

Didn't properly train, really, but, but doing the actual marathon completely changed my life. And the reason is because I'd only done like one somewhat long run before that, like one 16 mile run. It was a great run, but I hadn't touched anything over that, anything close to 26. 2. And so it was a very unique time in my life, but That marathon felt like a completely outside of my body experience, pushing myself like that, and like I said, I've never spent that much time on my feet, I've never pushed as hard as I did that day, and like you said, you could see it in my eyes, [00:04:00] something was awoken, 100%.

After that marathon, and my second one, which we could talk about, um, there was a shift. And I was never the same again. And it's like, it's a marathon. Everyone does it. I think people treat marathons differently. And some people it's fun, you do it party pace, whatever. I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in going to this place and finding a new version of myself on the other side.

And that's what happened that day. 100%. Yeah, I, in the time that you had, which was, uh, Three hours and 17 minutes. It's a tremendous time. 16, 3, 16. I missed you, but I missed it by a minute, but it's a tremendous time for your first race. And I do think that there's a lot of truth in what you just said. Like there is a hundred percent of way where you can do a marathon, have fun, still drink alcohol, kind of be a weekend warrior and try and enjoy that experience.

Like, yes, I think no matter what, no matter how fast you're doing a marathon, there is some degree of pain, but I knew. I knew you and I knew that if you were going to be signing [00:05:00] up for this race like you would basically be willing to die on the course to get that end result that you were ultimately looking for and I also think that anyone that really knows you outside of Instagram knows that you put incredible pressure internal pressure on yourself.

And I think that's just because I think you believe that God blessed you with some amazing talents, and you ultimately want to tap into those talents. But I remember talking to you in the sauna with Danny, it was like the week of the race. And it wasn't that you were negative, but you were just thinking about you were like, just talking about all the different factors.

And I had done a few marathons before that. And I knew you. So I knew that once you got to the start line, everything was going to be good. But I also knew that you were thinking about a lot of those variables in your head, things that could go right things that could go wrong. And then it was so cool for me to be at the finish line and see you.

The feeling of, I think, ultimately the feeling of pride that you had had for yourself. And you had like, I think you had to go to the aid station or the tent or something like that because you were so banged up. What happened [00:06:00] there? I was messed up. I think I was just super dehydrated. Yeah. But I was like hypothermic for literally 45 minutes.

Almost needed fluids. Like, I was sitting in the tent covered in tinfoil. My hand, it was wild feeling because it was 30 minutes after a marathon and my hands were like ice cold. Crazy feeling. And, and, uh, but, but, but, yeah, that was, uh, that's what happened there. And, yeah, that whole week, I was so stressed.

The whole week of the marathon. Because you're right, I do put so much pressure on myself, always. Like, to me, it wasn't just a race. This was, like, a life defining moment. Even though it was just this random marathon. Yes. But it was in that time, I needed something like that. And, and, that's always been my, my, Who I am, I put incredible pressure on myself.

And I rose to it that day. And that was part of the excitement as well, setting this goal that look, a 360 marathon is nothing, even my last marathon, it's nothing, there's way faster people who are way less, who train way less, whatever. In the moment that seemed [00:07:00] super, like right on the line of unrealistic.

And the fact that I was able to do it gave me so much confidence. And I only did it because I pushed myself in a way I never have. And so, yeah, after that, a lot of things changed. Yeah, and, and now, with this, your, your standards just continue to raise and raise the more races and the more crazy shit that you do, so I think now, you probably, you're probably thinking, oh, a 2.

30 marathon is possible, maybe even lower than that over a long term time horizon, but a 3. 16 for your first marathon is incredible, especially considering the fact that you signed up, a month and a half before, didn't really know what you were doing from the fueling perspective, didn't really know what you were doing when, you know, you hit mile 20, mile 21 in those last five to six miles or its own race entirely.

And I just, I really do. I know I'm going back to this, but just that feeling in your eyes where my sense as your friend being a spectator was like, I think you started to realize, holy shit, if I just did a three 16 with this type of training, [00:08:00] what am I actually capable of? when I go all in, which is such an incredible feeling to have.

And then you just get that dopamine hit of like, what could Zach become if he fully goes all in on this pursuit? Yeah, what's possible. Running is a sport you can do for a while. Like, there are people who hit their peak in like late 30s even. So, I'm 27. So, if I just keep going with the sport, I have a lot of room to grow.

And that is part of what really excited me. Yeah, I don't know. It was just like getting to this mental place I've never been, is what. Did it for me. Yeah. And, and then it made the rest of life feel different. It made, I had to make some really hard decisions in my personal life, and they became easy to make.

Because I had gone to this whole other place that made the rest, the rest of reality feel very soft. Mm. And, and that's part of, why I'm running the way I am. You could say it's running away from something, but it and maybe that's how it started. But in reality, I think it's running towards this feeling that changes your whole perspective on the world.

And that's what I'm addicted to. That's why I'm running the way I am now. [00:09:00] I just want to go to these new places that I haven't been. Yeah, and I was looking up some of your Strava stats before this. So you've already run Um, you've already done two, two official marathons, right? In terms of that are actually races this year.

You've run 1200 miles on Strava. You did three marathons in three days last weekend. And then tonight, this is a very special time to record this episode. You're going to be literally running from sunset to sunrise, nine hours, 50 miles on the West Side Highway. Correct? Correct. Yeah, the main goal is nine hours.

And the side quest goal is 50 miles. I should be they should both align kind of perfectly. Yeah, unless something goes wrong. But yeah, that's tonight. What are those stats that I just read off mean to you knowing where you were this time last year and the transformation that's occurred in you? It's pretty wild.

You can't imagine it. Like after I did this last weekend, I kind of felt like I barely ran, which is [00:10:00] insane. To be fair, I was a little messed up after the third marathon because I kind of sprinted it. Yeah. But it took, it took like a day and then I was pretty sore. It's been like three days, four days, I'm fine now.

Um, can't fathom it. That's what, that's what's fun about it. A year ago, a marathon to me was this unbelievably ridiculous goal. It was like, okay, let me change context. It was just this huge thing. I couldn't imagine doing a marathon. But at the same time, and okay, and I couldn't imagine doing a marathon then.

And now it's just like, I could do it any morning I want at a good pace. I could go run a marathon anytime at 8, 830. Even in the beginning, though, the way I treated the marathon was like, okay, it's just three, four hours of running, people have this idea of it as this massive, massive, massive thing. I'm not going to see it that way.

There's no reason to see it that way just because of like this story around it that people make. No, it's just you're going to go run for three or four hours. And, and I've always had that perception of it. [00:11:00] Like, people inflate things. Even in school, like, people inflate organic chemistry. Like, we were talking about school before.

People inflate these classes. Oh, it's not that bad. Like, you just go and do it. But if you tell yourself this story of how hard something is, it becomes way harder. Instead, you can kind of play tricks in your mind that these things are not as colossal as people think. Yeah. And, uh, it's a fun, like, game I try to play.

When you just did, uh, last weekend, when you did the three marathons in three days, Was that the goal? Or did you just decide to do a marathon, bounce back the next day, and then just say, fuck it, I'm just going to make a hatchery. I can go three for three. No, it was the goal probably decided officially on like Tuesday.

That's kind of what it is. But this sport, I think you have to train for the questions you're most curious about. And that idea of three marathons in three days excited me a lot. And it's all in preparation for this Montauk run as well. That's like the logical reason. But there's also the not logical reason, which is I just wanted to push myself.

So. What do you think it is about the [00:12:00] pursuit of running that's allowed for this, like, transformational alchemy that's occurred within you the last year? I let it

consume my life, honestly. Yeah. Like, most of this year, All I've done is think about running, it's what I've spent most of my time doing, it's what I've spent, if you looked at all my time on Strava, I don't know what it is, but countless hours running. And you have the sport of it, which is actually doing it.

And there's the, the time you spend in your head alone, just running. And those things combined, I think, completely change a person. Completely. And so, yeah, that's why when I, when I started doing it last year, when I wasn't as in good a place, I just got so addicted to it. And kept letting it take over my life, versus, and now it's become, there was no plan here.

It just happened. Which is what I always talk about with obsession. You really can't plan it, you have to just wait for these things to come and completely take over your life. It happened to me last year with the [00:13:00] animation stuff. Right? Came into my life, I wasn't looking for it, but I saw it, and then I went on a four, five, six month sprint, put out an animation every single day, and it completely changed my life doing that.

Yeah. Completely. I think doing that, finding that, uh, content vehicle, put me probably like three or four years ahead in my, my career, my mission, whatever. Seriously. And, um, The running is going to do the same thing. I'm always just like looking for these things. And then when you find it, you just know.

Because you're spending all your time doing it. Like last year, I was like, I didn't even use all this information. But I was like reading old books about like Mickey Mouse and like old cartoons. And like finding these old cartoon bibles of like how did they pitch these old shows. Um, Yeah, it just took over my life.

And I think that's how you really find these iconic creators who go on these ridiculous rises. They're constantly looking for these, these exponential opportunities, they let it take over their life, and then they go to the next one, and the next one. And like I said, you can't plan them. But when they come to you, they're like, Not everyone will go all in.

I've [00:14:00] always been willing to like screw everything I'm doing. Yeah, people just know me for my writing. I'm gonna go run. I'm gonna go try to take over the running space. I'm gonna go try to be one of the best runners. Um, best like, you know, with quotes. Yeah, so that's, and now, like I said, running has become a core part of the obsession movement I'm trying to do because it's given me a real way to show the ideas.

Where like, like David Sandler shouted me out the other day. He's like, um, he was already a fan of me and an obsession before I started running. But now it's like I'm fascinated with Zach's obsession with running. Gives a whole nother aspect to it where I am genuinely trying to demonstrate the concept and live the concept and It's just very fun.

It's very fun to, for me, that game where it all combines into one thing. That's what I wrote about yesterday. I was like, It's not about, it's not really about, it is about running, but it's also not about running. Every single thing I do is just leading towards this lifelong, blood written, [00:15:00] like, Death Note, uh, mission to spread obsession to the world.

And when you kind of have everything going that way, it's, it's amazing. Yeah, I think for anyone that, really understands your content and digs into it. I think it's very clear to realize like the pursuits that you're going after from an endurance perspective are not an extension of like selfish selfishness or trying to be like, Oh, look at me look at how fast I am.

I think you're just embodying that mindset of obsession and showing the world what's actually possible. When you do have that obsession hat on and what what that actually does to you as a man. And I can say this from personal experience, I don't think there's a worst feeling in the world when you know the things that you're supposed to be doing.

But when your head hits the pillow at night, you know, and you're like every fiber as a man that you're not doing those things. And I don't think that there's a better feeling than really getting that dopamine hit of like, I am leaving it all on the line right now. I couldn't have, I couldn't have juiced the lemon anymore these last 24 hours.[00:16:00]

That's the best feeling. It's the best feeling. A hundred percent. Yeah. Um, I had a, I had a, I had a really good question queued up, but it's, it's slipping me right now. Um, what is this, uh, this Montauk run that you were just talking about? Yeah, this is kind of my big, uh, crucible this summer. I want to run from Montauk to New York city.

It's like 130 miles. I'll probably try to do it before, uh, before August or early August. Still trying to get the logistics together. But yeah, this will be, this tonight will be like my last big kinda preparation run. Do that, and then we'll see after that. My, my rough plan now is to get back to the marathon stuff.

Um, for a few reasons. One because I I kind of miss it. I miss running fast. It's all the ultra stuff the ultra long distance. You just have to go slow Relatively you could run like eight minute paces, but that to me like it's not that's not fast for me And so I do want to see what I'm capable of there It's it also is like just to be honest [00:17:00] the shit like takes over your life.

You can't do anything Yeah, one because of the time you have to spend training and two you just have no energy You just have no energy. Yeah And there are things I need to build and do, and I think the lifestyle of marathon training fits it more, um, right now. But we'll see. Like I said, it comes down to what I'm most curious about.

So if I do this Montauk run, and it's the best experience of my life, I might just want to go full into the ultra stuff and go race those. But we'll see after I do it. Yeah. In my opinion, outside of pursuing a relationship with God, I think there are, you know, two pursuits that teach you more about yourself than anything.

I think one is just following an entrepreneurial path in building out a business in line with your vision from scratch. It's just, it's a knife fight every single day. It's the highest highs you'll ever experience. It's the lowest lows. Um, it almost feels like you're bipolar. That's one of the things that Mark Andreessen talks about in his founder's letters.

But I've learned more about myself in the last two years since starting Meet Mafia Noble than [00:18:00] anything else. And I think the second pursuit is running. Um, we were talking about this last week, I ended up doing a 30 mile run on July 4th with Matt Johnson in Avalon, New Jersey, because I really wanted to do, uh, 30, 30 miles for 30 years, because I had just turned 30 on June 28th.

And then he always does an American flag ultra where anything over 26 miles, he'll, he'll run with, uh, with an American flag. Savage. Savage, and you gain such an appreciation for these incredible endurance athletes doing a run like that. But for me, I was under trained, I'd been running a bunch the last two months, but I hadn't run anything over 15 miles since I did the Austin Marathon in February.

And, um, our customer service rep for Noble quit. So I was doing all of our customer service tickets while we had a product shortage. So I literally barely slept for the three nights before that. So my body was all jacked up. I had a bunch of family things, but I was like, I, and there were so many excuses for why.

I logically thought that I shouldn't do the run. And then even when you're [00:19:00] doing that race, you just learn so much about yourself and your mental talk. And I was matching his fueling strategy, which was basically nothing. He drank two Cokes the entire run. Half the size of you. He's a savage. And, um, So I'm like, I know that I could do the run, but I need to walk it more and I need to take in more calories, but I was matching his fueling strategy.

So by the time mile 17 came around, I was so jacked up, dude, like it was, we were on the boardwalk, it was 95 degrees, we were baking in the sun, I was underslept, undernourished, and the excuses that I was telling myself, dude, were crazy, where I was like, This is his run. It's not your run. Just make it to mile 20.

You can quit. Make it to mile 23. You can quit. And having someone like that, they're being like, dude, you're not quitting. We signed up for this together. And then, you know, you just keep chipping away the miles. And then you eventually hit like mile 25, mile 26. And you're like, all right, I'm close enough.

I'm going to finish this out. But just my mental talk, like just getting in the lab and doing something so difficult, it reminded me of all the endurance races that I did prior to starting the brand. [00:20:00] And that run made me realize that. I need to be pursuing an entrepreneurial path while doing these races in tandem, because there's this critical part of me that I'm pulling off the table when I don't do those runs.

And I'm sure you feel that too. Yeah, 100%. Which endurance runs did you do before? I had done, um, so Harry and I did Ironman Waco, uh, in October of 2021. So two months before starting the podcast, I did the New Jersey Marathon. I did the Clearwater 50k. Um, probably done like 10 half marathons, 3 half ironmans, a couple marathons on my own, similar to what you did last last week.

I did not. So running was a huge part of who I was when I graduated college because when I graduated college, I really just felt like I had pissed away my baseball career. And I was running. Looking up to guys like Jocko Willink and David Goggins and, you know, if anyone knows anything about Goggins, he credits running to so much of his transformation as a man.

And I remember having this feeling in 2017 of like, you're just idolizing these men, but you're not [00:21:00] actually lacing up your running shoes and doing the difficult work. And so I found myself through endurance pursuits. And you had your snap then, kind of. I had my, that was my first snap. One of your first snaps.

Which basically built the body of confidence, which led to us doing Meat Mafia. Meat Mafia. But then the fascinating thing and something that's very humbling as a man is that you can turn your back on those things. And so the last two years, I was basically doing a fraction of the endurance work that I used to do.

And I never talked about it publicly, but it would eat it, it would eat away at me, I would be like, dude, you're running a health and wellness podcast. And you're not pursuing the physical to the extent that you know you could be. And so honestly, after seeing you at Memphis, and then just following along your entire journey and seeing your tweets, a lot of your tweets just hit me like a lightning bolt.

And I follow a ton of people. And I've always drawn a lot of inspiration from a ton of people, but your content in particular, it just speaks to something within my soul. And that's ultimately what inspired me to start doing the mile a day through the end of 2024. And I can [00:22:00] hear to my voice, I can tell by the way I approach my life, I feel like I'm I don't want to say I'm back.

I feel like I've elevated to a higher place because I could see it. Yeah, because I saw you a few months ago. Yeah, it's different. It's different. But it's like, dude, a lot of that transformation that you see in myself has stemmed from the way that you live your life and the content that you put out. So I just wanted to thank you for that.

And it makes you think about, you know, if you have 1. 4 million followers on Instagram, how many other people can have that similar snap moment? And what does that relate to at a macro level? Again, that's what gets me excited. That's exciting to think about. And I have to remind myself of it often because I'm I come from the perspective and this has This is kind of like, there's a lot behind this, but I just like, never think about the audience.

Like, I do, and I know they're there, and I'm doing it for them. But I forget they're there often. Like, I just post and go. Yeah. It's like Rogan says it, I think. I post and ghost or something. And, uh, yeah, it's wild. And then when I get, hear stories like that, or I hear people say stuff like that, it makes me realize I have to do so much more.

Like, I'm [00:23:00] not doing enough. Because everything I don't do is, could be inspiring this other person. Um, That's amazing. Thanks, man. You inspire me a lot as well. You've always been like this had this special belief in me, which only a few people had, and it fueled me a lot over the last few years. Seriously, because you believed in me before I had the snap, which was, uh, which matters a lot.

That's what it matters most. Yeah, well, the tough thing about personal development, right, is that you will always be your biggest, internal and external critic, but you can't see yourself the way that I see you or your closest friends too. So like, I would see you doing, you know, crushing it with these animations, putting out some of the best writing I'd ever seen, writing that inspired me, and you would still be so self critical.

In my theory, you correct me if I'm wrong, I think that you were so critical of yourself because I think you were, even though you were doing all these amazing things, I think you still maybe felt internally a little bit more like a spectator of obsession, whereas that since the snap at the St. Jude's Marathon, you are truly embodying obsession.

And again, I go back to what I said [00:24:00] before, I don't think there's a better feeling when you really feel like you're in that driver's seat and putting out content that's like actually in alignment with how you're living your life as a man. A hundred percent. Yeah. I, I just realized this was kind of why I changed my Instagram up, why I changed the username to my name.

Yeah. Why I put my face out more. I just realized that for, for this life mission I have. Yeah. There needs to be the, a leader, there needs to be someone who's living the idea. There has to be, and, and it has to be me 'cause I'm the one doing it. Yeah. Um, and yeah, it's very important to me. Uh, uh, Sahil Bloom, he calls it being a product of your idea, being an actual example of the things you talk about.

How do you show it and. Yeah, when that marathon happened, it just became super obvious to me. You can go look at my old tweets from then about running, and I, I, I'm starting to really do it now, like, I, I think. Where, like, I'm becoming kind of, people know me for running now. A lot of people know me more for running than anything else, which was not at all the case a year ago, but I love that.

Yeah. And you know what? In two, three years, they might know me something, for something [00:25:00] completely different. Mm. That's fine. It's whatever vehicle I think matters for, for what I want to do. Um, and so, yeah. Yeah, it would literally be impossible to create the type of content and have the impact that you're having now, if you didn't have.

make that conscious choice to go from being like pseudo anonymous to fully public. And I felt that too, because when Meat Mafia started, Harry and I were both anonymous, right? And I think, I think when you're trying to overcome imposter syndrome in the beginning, because it takes, it takes so much like upward thrust to go from consumer to like an actual creator that people care about.

And I think being anonymous really helps you build that confidence where there's not that much, it allows you to almost say things that you wouldn't normally say. you would normally not say publicly, but then if you really want to have that impact and be that leader, you have to show your face, you have to talk into the camera.

And I know that that was a big thing for you, even though you had built this amazing following, there was still, there was still this [00:26:00] like internal chatter and this like debate of, you know, should I doc should I create video content? So what did you kind of do to overcome that? fear or that whatever thought process you were in.

Yeah, I started the year with a mission to put out YouTube videos every single day. And I went on like a 30 day sprint where I basically did that. I'm pretty sure I got up one a day or close to it. And that completely changed my life as well. I had just had that new energy from, from, um, the first marathon I'd moved out.

Um, I had a whole new kind of life and I had all this energy and yeah, I put it all into those videos at least for that time. And that was really special. That sprint completely changed the connection with my audience. Totally. I believe that more than anything, it got me insane opportunities that from people who knew my writing, but found me from the video.

And then they're like, Oh, I, I want you to do this. It's crazy. And. Getting over that jump as well was it was a that was a big jump [00:27:00] to get over That was something I wanted to do for a long time and I still want to do I kind of I'm not really doing many Videos right now for reasons. I don't totally know.

It's just I'm not excited about doing it right now I'm not excited about talking as much right now. I'm just like I wanted to show the work Yeah, I want to just show the running and I think that's okay. I think I'll come back to it when it's right I just don't want to do anything fake I don't want to do anything fake.

And there's there's a line between like discipline and fakeness where like, Oh, I should be making videos, I should get this up, versus I'm just yapping. And it's not really helping anybody. There's a thin line there. And I'll make a video if I think it could change someone's life. Yeah, right now, I'm just focused on this stuff.

And, but doing that was a big hurdle that I thought about for years. And I got over it. And now it's nothing I could record. And it's no problem. But but yeah, It takes a lot, I think, actually, to be able to look into a camera and be your authentic [00:28:00] self. It's a lot harder than people realize. I think without a script without a script or anything.

Yeah How many videos did you create during that time period like 40 or 50? Yeah. Oh something like that Yeah So I know to go from because I know the goal when you started was a video a day and you were essentially doing that For close to 50 days I mean that is such a massive body of work to build up to talking to a camera without a script for 50 days straight It's a nice little library.

If someone likes my stuff, they can go to my youtube and watch Like a few hours, maybe, yeah, probably like a few hours of content, which is good. It's great. I think yeah, and I'll get back to it. And it would be awesome. Yeah, right now is just not the time. Yeah, I think you said is it okay, if I'm not creating videos?

And my answer to that is absolutely. And the thing that I go back on is that if the con if you feel there's a diff, it's hard to articulate what I'm about to say. But there's like almost two types of resistance with creating content where One is, hey, I know this is what I should be doing, I just know it's going to take a lot of work to create this and [00:29:00] turn it into something that's tangible, and I think if you feel that feeling, that's a sign of like, you should go back and create that content.

And then the second feeling is, hey, this actually, this piece of content isn't in alignment with where I am right now. And it's good to turn your back on that and just create content that you enjoy, that you're in alignment with myth. Because if you enjoy it, you're going to do it consistently. And if you do it consistently, it's going to compound, you're going to grow an audience, and you're ultimately going to grow a following that's in alignment with your beliefs too.

Yeah, I think that's true. I also learned through the videos. That maybe one day that'll be my main platform and that's my like you would compliment to the video so much you're like this is your gift or something like that you should be speaking to a camera and maybe that's true. But for me, I genuinely believe my core gift is writing.

Yeah, I think you would agree with that too. Yes. And like that is the one thing that I can do in a way that no one on earth can do. And I was blessed with it or grew it somehow. And that needs to be the core of everything I do. And it still is to this day. The [00:30:00] opportunities I've gotten over the last few months, which have been the biggest of my life are because of writing.

Yeah, core solely because of my writing about obsession, and just the writing in general. And so it's like, the YouTube stuff like it's, it's great. But it's like, the writing is the one thing I will do forever. And I felt like I was getting away from it a little bit. And now I think I'm in a good place.

There's a lot more I need to do and put out there. But, but the writing to me, it's like, I think you need to find as a creator, as an artist, whatever, your one core medium, and just grow and compound that forever. Yes. And that's what I'm trying to do. That's, that's what I'm trying to do. Yeah, it's like the Scott Adams talent stack that he talks about with Naval where it's like extremely difficult to become best in the world at one thing.

But if you're very proficient at, you know, two to three things, you have this very unique talent stack that makes you differentiate. And I think with you, I think you are a top 1 percent of the 1 percent in writing. And I think what you didn't realize until you posted these 50 plus videos on [00:31:00] YouTube is that you're actually an incredible speaker too.

And I see that and a lot of other people see that. But at the end of the day, you do have this unbelievable ability to like, when I read your tweets, I feel like you've articulated feelings that have like, like this fire in my belly that sat there that I've never been able to put words to. It's basically, essentially, you can do that in brute de force can do that.

And those are the only two people that I've come across on Twitter, where I so consistently bookmark your stuff, screenshot your stuff, favorite your stuff, because I'm like, I want to like inject this shit into my veins. Because that's the only thing that I have control over is the way that I feel. So I'm constantly brainwashing myself with content on the internet that makes me tap into that version of myself, that like primal version of that mindset that I just want to embody 24 7.

And you have that gift. Thanks man. For me, for me, that's the, that's the game. That's the best game in the world is I live my life a certain way. I do certain things like this running or whatever. I wait for these things to come to me. And these [00:32:00] ideas. You craft them a certain way, and then they get to have that impact.

It's the best feeling in the world. Yeah. Because I obsess over it. I do, like, and I have since the beginning. And I've been, with the writing I put out. And I've been trained by the algorithms for years now, in terms of what is good writing, what people like. You could define good writing. But to me, it's, it is still true.

Good writing does well. It's just like the truth. And if something's not good, it doesn't do well. And sometimes you think something's good and it doesn't do well, that could happen. But in general, if I put my soul into something and do the right tweaks to make it, make it make you feel something, it, it works.

And I, I just love that it's so natural. It's, for me, it's like a natural, I never think about it, but at the same time, I think about it a lot. Yeah. That's what obsession is, truthfully. Yes. It's like I, the, the, the process of. Me having an idea and putting out a tweet that gets whatever that does super well on Twitter and Instagram I don't think about it, but it's like It's, it's, it's natural.

Yes. Like, [00:33:00] something comes, I pick up my phone, I take out my phone, I write it down, I tweak it, I rewrite it, my laptop, rewrite it, and then it's out there. And there's, like I said, there's thought behind it, but there's also not, and that, to me, is obsession. That is amazing. And, uh, that's the game I like playing.

I've felt that since the beginning as well. That's why I got so addicted to it. I remember when I had just started my following, I had started putting out content, I was in the forest on a run, had an idea, shared it. And it just hit me, like, I'm in the middle of the forest, and this thing hits me, and I get to share it with people.

And for some reason, that, like, that setting was interesting. And, yeah, that, I started that game five and a half years ago, and just never stopped.

So to the point that you just said you know, I always go, I go back and forth on writing where I have always felt my best pieces of writing. It almost feels like it's a lightning bolt of inspiration from God that just hits you. And I've also gone through phases where I've, you know, gone into type fully, tried to batch out all my tweets and [00:34:00] content pieces for the week.

A couple of them hit, most of them don't. It's kind of, I think it's this overly regimented approach. And then I also do think that there's validity to Pressfield's model of like, I'm just going to sit down at the computer or the typewriter. And just force myself to write and I just trust that eventually the muse will hit me with inspiration.

Um, I guess like, what writing process would you recommend for newer people that want to get into the game? And then maybe you could contrast that to like your writing process now and what's worked for you. Yeah, I'm kind of a unique case. I don't do that much long form writing right now. Yeah, outside of like some projects I'm working on privately, but And so because of that, you can operate, I've always, I've never sat down and forced myself to write, ever, anything, really, it's always just been get an idea, get it into my notes, like the core of the idea, like a sentence or a few words.

And then when I have time, sit at my laptop, usually, and make it longer, even in [00:35:00] those, and make it longer and expand on it. And I'll spend like 15 20 minutes sometimes on a post that's only like two paragraphs long, but I think that matters. You could like, I'm just tweaking so many words, playing with so many words, moving them around, and speaking the writing out loud over and over, which is why it hits so hard.

Because it's like, programmed in a way that sounds good in your brain. Like, I think about that so much. It's like poetry, really. It's like music. Yeah. And so that's been my process, and it's I also do think there's something about sharing an idea right when you have it that people can just feel. Mm. You can tell when someone tweets, and you can tell when someone makes content.

Yes. And they're very different, and it's super obvious to people. super obvious. Yeah, like, you can tell when someone is ripping from like their soul, versus Oh, they're they're in typefully program. Now, there's anything wrong with that you're running a business, you're building a media company, nothing wrong with it.

But I think one benefit of my stuff has been I've literally done that for like six years now. Yeah, [00:36:00] just shared an idea right when I had it, basically. And over time that like, intensity and energy really matters, I think, and people expect it from you. And so, I think though, there will be a time in my life where I do sit down every day and force myself to write, like, long form, when I'm writing more books, more, more longer stuff.

And there are times when I do sit down and try to force myself, but the best stuff is always just raw, rip, some sentence forms in my mind, and, and, uh, And that's one of the beautiful things about the internet is that it does give you that instant feedback loop. So, and I can, and I can feel it too. And I think the goal is to recognize when something you're about to do or creating a piece of content that isn't in alignment with your gut or your heart and soul.

Almost like, Choosing to not have the confidence to not post it and wait for that lightning bolt to hit and I know when I'm about to pump a tweet that's like really heartfelt, you know, shooting from the hip, unfiltered, I know that that's going to [00:37:00] perform super well, and I know when that overly curated piece isn't going to, isn't going to hit well too, and then Twitter will immediately give you that feedback loop.

You can just tell. Yeah, you get exactly what you deserve with content. Yeah, you do. Our friend Dylan has that phrase, you get the views you deserve. It's so true. Yes. In the long run, it's totally true. Yeah. And I do think. You make a great point where with long form, it is important to almost like bake in that consistency of like, hey, from this time to this time, I'm just going to sit here at the computer, because I know I need or I can't just rely on like a 60 second tweet.

I think thread writing is a great example of that for me, like the first year, I think I wrote 50 plus threads on Twitter. And I had to just bake in that time to sit at my computer and either like, um, go all in on a topic that I'd already had or develop that topic and create something that would probably take me two hours, but it would result in millions of views, tens of thousands of followers, et cetera.

And there were so many times where I almost didn't sit at that computer and because I wanted to watch Netflix or Game of Thrones or [00:38:00] something like that. And just by sitting there, I allowed the muse to be able to come to me. And then those two times where I was so close to not writing on my computer, those both resulted in like the two biggest pieces of content that completely blew the brand up from like 10, 000 followers to 65, 000 followers too.

But it was, it was from that, it was like almost a combination of that consistency and just sitting there and then also like inspiration that hits too. It's like both of those things. Kind of like the runs you don't want to go on end up being the best runs of your life. Yeah. It's a little bit like that.

Yeah. Runs, workouts. Yeah. Are there any runs in particular? It could be a race, right? We talked about St. Jude's, or it could just be a training run, maybe something on the west side highway, or you felt a profound shift in your mindset. Like, is there, are there any ones that really stick out where like, from the time you laced up your running shoes to the time you took them off after the run, you felt like a different person?

Yeah, it's anywhere where I went somewhere new. And that could be like, it's obviously the two marathons I did. It's, uh, There was a run in November before [00:39:00] my first marathon, my first long training run. I did it at a great pace. That was like the first time I felt like, Oh, I have something here. That was the first time I felt that last weekend.

I felt it when I was like, this was the third marathon I did. I was pretty tired, but something took over me. I did, I did a marathon running, uh, basically up the whole West side of Manhattan and I was in like the middle of Harlem. It was like 10 PM. I'm like running through these people, like finishing their barbecues.

And I'm just like. Ripping at a pace that I didn't think I could do and yeah, it was like something in me It was awoken and that's like the people person. I like being I'm gonna find him tonight as well. And So like that was one. There's a few training runs. I don't really None are like coming to my mind right now, but it's whenever I tap into this feeling in mind state that I haven't been before It's probably happened like 10 to 12 times legitimately where I finished the run and I feel like I'm different But you have to keep going back.[00:40:00]

You have to keep going back into that state Otherwise, it kind of disappears slowly. I think you've kind of forget what it feels like. Yeah It's funny you say that because one of the things that Matt Johnson said to me When we were in the middle of our run in Avalon, New Jersey, was that the ability to cultivate the ability to run and walk long distances, it allows you to experience different places geographically and really like capture the essence of that place too.

So like if you really want to understand New York City, And like, learn about New York City and capture the essence of New York City. Being able to run either up and down the West Side Highway or through the city itself, through Central Park, through all the different boroughs. There's nothing better than that.

And you don't know this, but when I first, when I trained for my first marathon, which was the New Jersey Marathon in 2019, um, my girlfriend at the time lived in Battery Park. So I would do, I would, my, I actually would always do my long training runs on Monday nights. Always up and down the West Side Highway, you know, start off at 10 miles, 20 [00:41:00] plus and I don't think there's a better Running path in the world than the West Side Highway.

And I think that's something that you really resonate to with as well It's one of the best it's the spot, but you're right Like when you run in New York It makes you realize how small it actually is Like you can run from the top to the bottom of New York in a few hours. Basically. Yeah, regardless of pace like couple hours, few hours, you can run all between the different neighborhoods easily.

It's nothing. And so, yeah, that makes it feel like a video game, honestly, makes it feel like a playground for running. That's why I like it here. And one day I'll get tired of it, maybe, but I think maybe not. Yeah, there's, I've said this to you probably 50 times over the last year, but there's something about your content in particular that makes me want to just drop everything and move back to this city.

You should. I don't know what you're waiting for. I know. And that it's one of those decisions where you're like, it's my decision. Like you, you think that I'm [00:42:00] trying to articulate this the right way. It's like, you almost forget as a man that you actually, you have ultimate control over those decisions.

And like, it's very easy to create these artificial constructs of, hey, I need to be in Austin for this reason, or I need to be in New York for this reason. But like, or, hey, I couldn't, I can't split time between Austin, Miami, New York City, but who's saying that you can't. It's like you can create the means to live the exact lifestyle that you want.

Um, Why do you think that living in New York City was the right city to be in to really cultivate this brand around obsession or just cultivate obsession itself? I wouldn't be doing anything I'm doing now if it wasn't for New York. I don't know where I would be in terms of like my, my journey. For me, it's the ultimate, like I called it a game with running, but it is the ultimate game.

For me, I came here, had no money, didn't know anybody. I had like no friends. It was just me, and through doing work, putting stuff out there, going to things, you just, you meet more people, you get more opportunities, you make more [00:43:00] money, you get a nicer place, then you get a nicer place, then you make more money, you get invited to this, you get invited to that, and it's like, the city starts off, and it's so big, but you feel incredibly alone, and there aren't actually that many doors open.

There aren't. But then the more you do, you get exactly what you deserve and more doors open up for you and then behind those doors are more doors. And I always, I like this kid, uh, This kid, I think Caleb Simpson. He's like a content creator who does room tours. He said on a podcast once that he just wants to beat New York City.

He wants to win the game. Which is like, has the apartment he wants. Has, knows everyone he wants to know. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I like that game as well. And I'm playing it. And yeah, like being here, I met some of my best friends. Hunter Dillon. Um, Hunter and Dillon. Hunter Weiss and Dillon Jardon. Who we have, we are in the office building together.

And met them cause I was in New York and went to a random lunch. It was just like any other lunch, but met two guys who changed my life. And, um, I don't think I would have fallen in [00:44:00] running, fallen in love with running if I wasn't in New York. That seems to be a thing. People move to New York and they fall in love with running, right?

So if I didn't start, if I didn't meet them, I would not have done the animations, would not have gone on my growth run I went on last year. And if I wasn't running, it's like, where would I be right now? I'd probably have a few hundred thousand followers on Instagram. nowhere close to the opportunities I have now, nowhere near the reach.

And yeah, I've always been addicted to pressure. I love the feeling of having my back against the wall. That's what forces me to grow versus the other option, which is like playing a lot safer and like, you know, living way below your means. I've always been more on this side, which is like, put all the cards against me, and I'll rise to it.

And I'll go beyond it. And New York City is the perfect city for that. If you do it, the city gives you every opportunity to grow at whatever pace you want. And I am completely addicted to growing as fast as possible. Yeah, it's like when, when you look at just the skyline itself, or I always think about [00:45:00] when I lived in the Upper East Side and I would walk down Park Avenue and you have that iconic view of the MetLife building and all the skyscrapers.

I just remember one day having this feeling of Just the immense energy and currency and people that are constantly coming and going and flowing through the city every single day. And all you have to do is just stick your hand out and unlock one of those doors and you get to tap into that energy and currency too.

Right? Yeah, it's the best. Are there any other cities that you could possibly see yourself living in? Is there anywhere that's ever stuck out to you before? I really liked Austin, like when I first moved there. I wanted to move there. Yeah. I don't know if you remember that. I got the mullet as well. Like, I did the Austin haircut and everything because I'd never been somewhere like that, where like, everyone was just like me.

But like, I went in the sauna at Swatch and like, you talk to people and you have conversations that usually you only had like online or, um, Yeah, but I don't know. I don't, right now, no. Can't imagine. I could, I would do like months in other places. Like I would come do a month in Austin, a few months in Austin.

I probably will. I haven't traveled [00:46:00] very much at all in my life. Like, still. I'll probably start to now with like different events and opportunities, but I've barely traveled. Yeah, I actually have lived the stuff I talk about, which is I just worked and don't leave and I think that um, travel in a lot of ways can actually be a form of escapism where when you're fully thrust into your own mission, no matter where you are, if you're pursuing that mission, it makes you feel like you're in Disneyland 24 seven.

I like that a lot. Yeah. I love that. It doesn't matter where you are. Yeah. And I think I can confidently say to that you would not be the man and the creator that you are right now, had you moved to a city like Austin, I think this is actually a really important topic for us to talk about, because on a lot of our podcasts, we do talk about how amazing Austin is.

And there are, you know, I really do think that it's the health and wellness Renaissance capital of the world. And we'll look back on it like that. But the energy, the [00:47:00] competitiveness, the limitlessness of possibilities that New York has, I've still yet to come across a city that captures that. And I don't know if that's maybe a reef, a reframe or tweak that I need to make mentally.

But I do feel a difference when I'm in the city. And this is the city where I ultimately like, you know, cut my teeth on and developed a lot of great characteristics. And I've taken those things to Austin, I've taken a lot from Austin, too. But when I do come back here, I'm like, I think there's another chapter in store for me here at some point.

It's also just the pressure for me. The pressure. Like if you haven't made it yet, if you're not super rich yet, there's just immense pressure to make it here financially that you don't get in other cities. Yeah, sure. You could like struggle here, I guess, and live cheap. But, um, that's something I think I wouldn't have gotten that in Austin.

And I would just be chilling. Yeah, probably. I don't know. I don't know. But yeah, this is my place for a long time. And I feel like I've only, I've been here almost three years, but I feel like I've, I've only really lived in Manhattan. [00:48:00] Upper East Side is Manhattan, but I, I've only lived in like downtown Manhattan for like a year, sort of, not even.

So it's like, that to me is the city, and, um, I feel like I'm just getting started here. Mmm. Yeah. The, um, the desire, the inner desire that you have to feel that pressure, that creates that best version of yourself that you're addicted to. Was that a big impetus for you to sell that wedding photo booth business that was financially supporting you up until, you know, however long it was ago that you sold it?

Yes. Because of the fact that it wasn't like a life changing amount of money I got from that. Yeah. The business was kind of like, it was kind of on the back burner of my life, but yeah, I still made a good amount of money from it every year, every month. And so, You're asking, like, the pressure inspired me to do it?

Like, why did you sell the business? Was it, was it relate, was it in relationship to that pressure that you crave? Yes, in that I had to go all in on the content. Yeah. It was dragging me, it was mentally keeping me somewhere else [00:49:00] a little bit. I spent very little time on it, but it doesn't matter. It's like something running in the background of my life.

I don't have that anymore. I haven't had that since I, I sold it in February and it's amazing. Like I haven't, I can't even like, I don't even think about it anymore how amazing it is, but it's amazing. That's all I did for years. Um, and so I, uh, yeah, it, it, cause people don't realize that I've only been like full time, I guess, with my content and everything for like really this year.

Last year, I guess I was like, I probably could have made like a full time income. Um, Sort of, but like I was still making a lot of money from my photo booth and, uh, company, my photo booth company. And so, yeah, it was, it was the pressure to go all in and have to figure stuff out. And I did a lot over the last like four or five, six months.

Yeah, I mean the revenue opportunities that you're generating now. Not to like boast on behalf of you, but as a friend, it's like these speaking opportunities, the brand deals that you're starting to get. There are a [00:50:00] couple things I can't talk about publicly that people will see in the next few months.

It's like, it's just, it's, that is a byproduct of you choosing to go all in. And I think there's this weird thing. There's a strange Austin mindset that I don't agree with where I think people just shit on a corporate job for the sake of shitting on a corporate job because it's not cool. And my pushback to that is if you feel like you're in line.

in alignment as a human being while working that job. That's great, dude. Some of the most financially successful people our age have stayed in that corporate job. They're buying million dollar houses. They're starting families. That's amazing. Where you have to start to look in other paths is if you don't feel like you're in alignment with that corporate job, but you also have to understand what your risk tolerance is.

Because I know some people that, um, didn't have that side business or that dream that they wanted to pursue yet, but they trusted that, hey, if I just quit my job. cold turkey and just think just go out into the universe. I'll figure out that thing that I'm supposed to be doing. I didn't have that type of risk tolerance.

For me, it was I need to work my corporate job, [00:51:00] start building up meat mafia, start making income. And then I eventually hit this point where I realized the ideal life that I want to build through Meat Mafia is only going to come if I quit this job and be willing to just face that month to month uncertainty financially and live off of my savings and but also be willing to earn it all to zero for the sake of building this thing into what I want it to be.

How long did, how long did you do both? I did both for about, so I started Mafia January of 22 is when I first started writing tweets and then I quit, um, September of 22. So January to September. Were you making more money from the Mafia stuff? No, not at all. Not even close. Yeah, so like you had some risk tolerance.

Yeah, that's really what it comes down to. And also, to be fair, some of like the most successful entrepreneurs and people I know had corporate jobs for a while. Definitely. And they just like pivoted. But, yeah, I've always been on the, you have to genuinely ask yourself. Some people don't realize how comfortable they are with risk, actually.

If they put themselves there. I've always been on the extreme end. Where like, I'll eat oatmeal, [00:52:00] I'll not spend money for like three weeks, like I'll just do it. sit there and be fine. I've always been like that. And it's, I guess it's a strength, but it's not for everybody. Right? But then when you get there, you become, you basically have this muscle you have to train, which is trusting yourself to figure it out.

Right? And that is an incredible muscle to grow, like for the photo booth company. And if you're an entrepreneur, you know, this feeling you promise something and don't know how to do it. Right? I promised like a tick tock photo booth. I just invented it, came up with it charged 2, 000 for it didn't exist.

It's not a thing. And I just hacked together like an iPad, put TikTok on it, built this like inflatable thing, and then went to a wedding and did it. And it was a sweet 16 and did it. And it was great. People loved it. But it's like trust. And that's, that's why, that's why that photo booth business was cool.

Cause it was event based, wasn't a product. So I could promise something like two months from now for a wedding in two months and be like, Oh yeah, of course we have it. We'll figure it out. And I would always figure it out. And now I have that strength [00:53:00] to a very strong degree. Where, like, all the cards will be against me.

I'll have every reason to, like, quit and fail and not win, and I'll just do it. And that's a muscle you have to train over and over and over. And the higher the stakes get, the more you have to train it. But eventually, you become very numb to it, where you just surf over chaos, and it's just, like, normal.

And, uh, that's kind of where I'm at now in life. And, uh, It's a it's kind of from the outside. Sometimes I see it. I'm like what the hell is happening Hmm, but it's just it's the same thing over and over just bigger stakes And yeah, so that's what I like doing. It's not for everybody, but it's the only path that you could possibly pursue.

I think yeah It's just who I am one choice. Yeah, do you get recognized in the wild a lot when you're running in Manhattan now? I do which is fun. I like I like when people say obsession. That's the best happens often. You know, I don't think people know my name, usually, which is amazing. It's actually bad.

They just associate you with obsession. Correct, which [00:54:00] is as if they use, they probably know Zach sometimes, but often people have not known my name. They just knew obsession, which to me is perfect. That means what I'm doing is working. That means the idea is bigger than me, which is what I always want.

It's what it always has to be. The moment people come up to me and I say, Zach more than obsession. I'm kind of failing at what I'm doing, which might happen if I get bigger. I wish I will, but the goal is for obsession to always be the thing. And, um, yeah, it's cool. I like it. I remember you put out a tweet, maybe it was like six months ago.

I think you said, what word are you owning? And obviously that word for you is obsession. And I remember when I first read it, my initial wave of emotion was like, holy shit, is it possible to own a word? And I'm like, you actually are owning that word. Like, I don't know if there's another person throughout the course of history right now that more people like synonymous synonymously associate with obsession than you.

I mean, [00:55:00] maybe like an incredible founder or something like that, but at least in modern times, like Zach Pogrob is synonymous with obsession. I mean, that must be a pretty incredible feeling. Yeah, like to me it's still like small circles, but it is pretty, when you think about it, it's pretty big. 1. 4 million followers.

It's a lot of people, it's a lot of people, um, who do associate me with it. I get more excited thinking about like a decade from now if I just keep going. I don't plan to stop talking about it. I plan to literally talk, like you said, I say life mission forever. So it excites me a lot to think about what like 10 years looks like.

Right, because it's really only been like a year and a half, but until I um, since I like firmly committed to it It's probably been like two Almost three years talking about it roughly talking about it often, but it's only been like a year and a half Committed every day hammering it. Hmm. It's not a lot of time Hmm, it's not but I think the running pieces helped a lot.

It's like Zach is obsessed. It helps a lot. I think Yeah, [00:56:00] I think the reason why I I relate why I love the running journey that you've been on. And I think a lot of other people in your audience love it too, is that I think the easier path would have been for you to talk about other people that embodied obsession.

Like you could have easily done an incredible podcast called the obsession podcast, where you just Tell stories of these incredible founders and different people throughout history that embodied obsession, and it's much harder but more rewarding to embody that for yourself where you actually become the light for other people.

And that's something that Harry and I talked about is like we don't want to just be the people that. tell these great stories about the food system or interview the experts. It's like, we want to be the person that people look up to. And it's I think it's easy in the beginning to tell stories about other people.

I think it's a really easy way to build your following and build your confidence. But I think the end goal should be like you ultimately being the life, the light for your audience. Do you agree with that? 100 percent It depends what you're [00:57:00] trying to do. But if you're trying to build a movement, you guys are trying to build a movement.

Yes, trying to spread your your own religion. Yeah. And you have to You have to have the figure, the person, the leader, that people can attach themselves to and see themselves in. It's why you see all these brands now, um, built around these creators, right? Like George Heaton. It's like, you can't quantify what he's done for his brand.

Since he, I think, really a few years ago, even, only started putting himself out there a lot more. Um, People need these things. Like, throughout your life, throughout my life, I've always, like, kind of idolized people and, like, taken pieces from them that I wanted to be. And I'm not saying people idolize me, but they take pieces and they put it into their own life.

And it's very natural. People are searching for identities. And I think that's, like, the power of being the product of the idea is you can notice it in somebody and then take a piece of it for yourself. That's all we're trying to do. Like, I'll never forget. There's a, there's a great quote in this movie, uh, [00:58:00] Air about, uh, the Michael Jordan, Michael Jordan and his shoes.

I heard a lot of that movie was like, not true, but regardless, um, this line was great. It's like, people just want to touch greatness. And when you have the person, it's like Michael Jordan stepping in the shoes. That's what people want. And, um, yeah, that's why I'm doing it. Yeah. It's almost like the, uh, we talked about that moment of the snap where.

you know, the, the switch is flipped and you embody what we're talking about. And for me, it's always been, I just remember having this feeling of like, looking up to so many people and consuming so much content and just viewing myself like this almost like malleable piece of granite that I could like chisel into my own version of the statue of David.

And I'm like, why can't I just become the light versus constantly looking up to other people too? Like, why can't I be that person that I look up to? Yeah, like I started out I still do it sometimes. But years ago, all I would do is I would write lists of the people I wanted to be like, like, literally, if you [00:59:00] look at my Apple Notes, I have endless lists of like, it actually was for a while like artists, athlete entrepreneurs, like the model I talked about.

I just had long lists in every category or it was creators and I just I labeled them and I took pieces over time and brought them into my own thing versus now I don't really do that. Now I'm just like, I do that way less. And, uh, now it's much more like historical people. It's like older people I want to take things from.

Um, and so I think it's something everybody does subconsciously and, uh, Yeah, it's important. What, um, what older people do you still draw inspiration from or try and model your life after, different characteristics after? I like these people who just, kind of what we're talking about, it's like, they become products of their ideas.

Like, uh, and a lot of it's like from Founders Podcast, which is like the only podcast I listen to. Me too. That's probably why I like, go down, go back to these people, but like Ralph Lauren, Enzo Ferrari, like these guys who just, they turn their being. into these [01:00:00] massive companies and organizations. That's what I'm trying to do with obsession, trying to build this huge thing.

And it's just, it's just me with all these different branches. And I think that is an incredible way to live your life. And it's not for everybody. And it, you never turn it off. But if it's you, then you should probably start it and get on the ship and it never ends. But yeah, those type of people, Walt Disney, um, et cetera, et cetera.

Actually, to be fair right now, I'm studying a lot more athletes. Just because I'm kind of in that arc of my life right now. A lot of Kobe, Michael Jordan, um, a lot of endurance athletes, uh, Steve Prefontaine, um, really good new series on Netflix called sprint about, uh, some of the best about the best track athletes in the world.

It's really good. This guy, Noah Lyles, have you heard of him? No, he's like basically the best, uh, 200 meter and sprinter in the world. And he's trying to do the a hundred meter as well. And when that he inspires me a lot. So yeah, right now I'm studying a lot of athletes. Um, just trying to take [01:01:00] pieces and put it into my game and yeah.

Do you have a, like a playbook of a daily routine that you try and follow that makes you feel like the best version of yourself or is it pretty different day after day? Are there any staples that you just continue to bake in? Yeah, usually except when I do these crazy running stuff because it just changes kind of everything.

Like, it's kind of a lot based on feel, but no, usually, usually I'll wake up, run, go to my office, work, go, I usually start with my, my busy work. So like emails, tasks, any sponsorship stuff, like stuff I have to do, get that done, then go on to creative work. And then, um, in the evening, I try to work out, that would be like the normal day.

Um, and then go home, but having the office is great. I highly recommend getting a place to work outside your home that having that changed my life. I've had a cool office, uh, downtown for almost two years now, [01:02:00] a year and a half. And, um, That is very lucky to have that. And so, yeah, that's really the routine.

But when I do these crazy running stuff, it all kind of goes out the window. And I'm like, based off feel like today, I have to go eat a bunch of food. So I'm going to run a lot. And so, yeah. So I, when I'm hearing you speak, I'm hearing simplicity. I'm hearing something that's like very practical, very repeatable.

Um, do you have, do you take any rest days right now from either endurance or weightlifting? Are you doing something pretty much every day? Like I said, if I'm doing extreme stuff like I am now, yeah, like I rested this week. Yeah. But before this week, because I did the three marathons. Um, and honestly, the only reason I had to rest was because I like sprinted the last marathon.

But, but normally, no. No rest day is nothing. I'll lift a lot. I'll work out a lot. I was doing like two, three workouts a day most of the summer so far. Um, I have a kind of endless energy right now. I feel like I don't need to sleep. Uh, you know what changed my life a bit? In a lot of ways is a Casey Neistat.

One, because he, he helped me get into [01:03:00] running. Cause um, he, he was a good source of motivation. Cause he's a, he's in my office building. And uh, he would uh, Well one, he's a great runner. And he would always run with Hunter Weiss. And they would inspire me. I'm like shit, I gotta be able to keep up with them.

I need to start running. But then also before my, before my, marathon, my first one, he gave me so much. He was like, he's like, you're gonna die. Like, you're not gonna be able to do this in like a loving way. He's just like, be careful. Like, he wasn't being a dick. He was just like, this is insane. What you're trying to do.

Like, I don't think you can do this. And that fueled me so much. And so he motivated me a lot. But but he has this video, which is great, where he talks about his routine. And he says basically you can replace sleep with exercise. I think that's 100 percent true. And he also shared how he, in that video, how he, he lifts every night.

And he just does these quick workouts every night. And I started doing that and it, I really like doing that. So like with the running you kind of tire yourself out, but usually if you eat a lot during the day you can force yourself to get to the gym at night and go and do like some light lifting, something, and that's kind of my routine when I'm in normal running, it's [01:04:00] like run in the morning, do my work, eat throughout the day, and at night go lift and try to do full body or upper lower, um, whatever feels right.

Yeah, I'm similar to you where I've always found that stacking, Running cardio endurance in the morning gives me that mental state change that I'm craving during the day. It's an addiction. It's an addiction. Yeah. Yeah. And for me, it's always just been, I think a lot about my, my screen time on my phone and the way that I feel when I'm on my phone.

And even just like checking my phone first thing in the morning for 10 minutes, I noticed that negative state change. So for me, it's like if I can just I don't need this 15 step morning routine if I can just shower and get my ass out of bed as quickly as possible and just get out into the world. I just throw I literally throw on the founders podcast, some three to eight mile run, and then I am shower again, and then I'm good to go for the rest of the day.

And then for for weights. I'm like, I 30 minutes. I'm good. That maintained a lot for me just doing like 30 minutes at night. Yeah, kept a lot of my muscle until I started doing a lot [01:05:00] of crazy running. I lost a bit, but I get it back quickly. I don't care. Um, and, uh, How was your, uh, what was your reaction to, um, that amazing YouTube video that Casey put out about him finally breaking the, uh, three hour marathon?

It was amazing. Yeah, I love how he glorifies the, the marathon so much. It is a very special thing. It's been around for a long time. It's amazing that it's just this thing that you can go do anywhere in the world, and it's the same, basically. Yes, it varies a lot. There's temperature and there's different race courses.

It's kind of wild to me that it exists. I feel that way about New York. I feel that way about the marathon as well. Those are usually the things you should do more of. It's like, how does this thing exist? It's so amazing. Yeah. How does it exist? There's just like this thing. race that happens all around the world all the time where people can run 26.

2 miles organized. It's very cool. And that video is amazing. I'm happy he did it. He had every reason to stop running. You saw like his injury like [01:06:00] crazy. And I think he's hurt right now or he was hurt because otherwise he'd be running nonstop. I don't know if he's running right now. But, um, yeah, he inspired me a lot.

I'm in that video, which made me really happy. Yes. And for a second. And, uh, um, yeah, like I said, him and Hunter are huge reason I started running. Yeah. So I'm very grateful for them for that. Yeah, well, they have this, um, I've never met Casey before. I've only I only know him through his YouTube videos, but I've gotten to spend some good time with Hunter Weiss through you.

And I the theme, the thread that I come back to with him is like, these guys that Spend more energy, seem like they have boundless energy throughout the rest of their lives. And I feel like that's absolutely true. It's this very interesting, it almost seems like a dichotomy, but it makes sense intuitively, where it's like the more energy I put into something and spend more energy, the more energy I actually get back for myself.

Yeah, it also relates to, I started reading this book called, uh, Napoleon Never Slept. And it's, it's similar. There's these people who have these different formats of [01:07:00] energy, and I think they get it from different places. For Napoleon and some of these guys, they basically talk about how the more energy they give to others, the more they get back.

And I think that's 100%, I feel that a lot. I feel like if I'm putting stuff out there into the world, I get insane energy back. And the moment I stop, I don't get energy. I know I'm kind of like, moving to a different point. I know. But um, that's how I feel like, uh, with content. Like, I described it yesterday to a friend.

If I don't put something out to the world, I have like an itch. Like an itch. All day. Like until I do it and then I do it and I feel better I can go and relax And I don't know what you diagnose that as but um, maybe it's just like addiction to the dopamine of it But fine, I don't care if it's helping people like call it whatever it is But I genuinely do get it energized by putting energy out into the world and yeah I'm drawn to people like hunter like casey like you who have this sense of energy that to me is like That's what obsession is obsession.

If you are obsessed you have to [01:08:00] have this this energy thing inside you. I've always felt like I had it. Just this energy that you have to, but then the challenge is you have to put it into things. And if you don't put it into things, it will drive you insane. It will. And for me, that's been a story of my life.

If I didn't have a vehicle, like the content, or if I didn't have running, where does all this energy go? It just sits inside of you and it kind of starts to eat you alive if you don't put it out there. Yeah. You know, that's really important. I think, like, some of the most anxious people are just, like, the most obsessed.

They just don't have anywhere to put it, so they obsess over themselves. And, and I've been, I've done that my whole life, and I still do that. But, once you get it outside of yourself, you realize how much you have to push. And, the energy thing can't be faked, some people have it, some, it's just intense, I call it intensity, really.

It's like intensity in the eyes, you can just see it, and, uh, you can't fake it. Yeah. But if you have it, you have to put it somewhere. Yeah, it's funny. They did a study, not a study. They did, um, I saw this picture. I'll try and send it to you. It was [01:09:00] basically show a contrast of Tom Brady's eyes versus the quarterbacks that he beat in the different Super Bowls.

Um. Like I think it was like in the fourth quarter or something like that and basically every other quarterback had these like very wide eyes where he has like that very like his eyebrows are slanted down almost like closed eyes. But to your point, it's like, it's that look and you just know it when you see it.

And it's funny because anxiety, is actually a good thing deep down, because I think that means that there's potential of energy that's sitting inside you. It's just not swelling and being channeled. I always think back to Jeff Bezos saying that anxiety stems from knowing that there are things that you should be doing that you're not doing.

And so when you exercise that itch, maybe it's like writing, literally, for me, sometimes I'll be thinking about a piece of content or doing something for the business that I know I should be doing. And it's giving me anxiety because I'm not doing it. And literally 30 seconds into starting that task, the anxiety immediately goes away.

It's truth. Yeah. Yeah. And also sometimes when [01:10:00] you're just doing the wrong things. Yeah. The more opportunities you get, the more you become very aware of what feels good and what doesn't. What feels like work and what just feels like obsession and play. And uh, yeah, it's a good like signal of, okay, this is where I actually need to be going.

This is what I need to do less of. What advice would you have for someone in their early 20s that feels that, you know, They've been blessed by God with this amazing reservoir of energy, but they're not exercising it. And they have these big, they have these large hopes and dreams, but they kind of just feel like they're flat right now.

And they don't really know where to start. I would say you have to figure out how to start something and never stop. And you can pivot it, you can change it. But this one core activity, you have to start it and never stop. And you look at the people who do things in life and create things, and almost all of them have that in common.

Especially the ones who are like in their early 30s, late 20s, who are doing something meaningful [01:11:00] and impacting a lot of people, that they all have been doing their thing for like a decade. And it's changed a lot. But you have to get in some arena. And start playing, and most people, you spend a long time waiting.

I spent like two, three years waiting, basically. I had the idea for a behavior act, like my Instagram, for like two and a half years, in my notes, just sitting there. And there's a line of not being ready because you're not the right person yet, but then there's also like, I could have started it two years before and probably been a lot further ahead.

Um, but that's what I'd say. If you think you have that feeling, you have to enter some arena and realize that the people who create these things, they, they have this one core compounding thing and they just ride it and they never stop. And yeah, I don't know. That's like the only advice I could really give.

It's a great answer. It's a powerful answer. That's what I did. And it has to just kind of hit you. I don't remember the day I started putting out content, but whatever I decided that day changed my life forever. Right? Like, I just, [01:12:00] I was living in the shittiest apartment in Binghamton, New York. I was paying 600 a month for rent.

And one day I decided to post something on Instagram. And deciding that day, there is probably a world where that day I just didn't decide to. Woke up the next day and never did it. There's probably a real world. And I was, I would probably have started, I was trying to get hired as a medical scribe to go to med school.

I'd probably be like struggling in some shitty med school right now. And. Yeah, that is like a very real path that I could have gone down and something hit me that day to do it, and I never stopped. And often you don't realize, it's like the marathon. Signing up for the marathon changed my life. I think commitment can truly breed obsession, because once you have like this game to play, this arena to enter, you realize how much you have to give.

Right, it gives you an opportunity, gives you a vehicle, but before that you're just kind of in your head. You don't know what to start. And so yeah, it's like start something and never stop and you could do a different thing. [01:13:00] But it's the never stopping pieces is key and most people stop. But the people who don't stop, they usually get somewhere.

When you, um, when you're in a state of mind where you need to go for a run and you don't want to lace up your running shoes because you're tired, or you don't want to go to the office and create that piece of content you need to create, or you don't want to go to Equinox and get a lift in, what is your, what are like your motivational focal points that kind of get you to do that work?

Well, I think Are you talking about stuff I don't want to do? Yeah. Like those things I never feel that way about. You never feel that way? No. About the things you just said? No. There's No. Not, not now. Is there anything that you feel that towards? Yeah, all the time. Yeah, there's plenty of things. Like answering emails, doing maybe like some, some type of content I don't want to make for a company.

Some project. Um, a hundred percent I feel that way. And to be honest, I don't really have great advice. I, I, what I do do is realize I have to do it. [01:14:00] I tend to procrastinate them because I just know that it's not what I should be doing. So for me, I'm like, in those moments, I actually just like, I don't really have good advice.

I do them as quickly as I can, as effectively as I can. I try to treat everything as a professional and realize that I have to do these things. But then I, when I do them, I realize, okay, this is not the thing I should be doing. Yeah. I need to get back to like, the other stuff. That's my obsession. Building the things I'm obsessed with versus these things I force myself to do.

So that's just genuinely how I feel about them now. But yeah, in terms of doing them, it's just like, uh, commit to a day usually. Commit to a day and put them on do them first and get them done. Yeah, but my goal is to have I mean you'll always have stuff like that I guess that you don't really want to do but I This is like a bigger idea.

I actively though and Pivoting everything to get to a place where I don't feel that way about anything. Yes, and there will like I said be things always But I think you can get to a place where most of [01:15:00] the work you're doing feels just like true obsession. I think like Founders Podcast is a good example of that.

David Senra. He doesn't have to force himself to do much, I don't think. I think he has to hold himself back. No. And, um, that's why like the question kind of like confused me. Because I actually am in like a place where most of the stuff I do is this. But there are still these little things that, that, you know.

Feel like work. Yeah. Um, and so yeah, I get them done. I'm so used to now that the privilege of getting to do this stuff and having this stuff actually be like kind of my Like how I'm supporting myself. Um Which is very, very lucky. And I try not to take it for granted. But yeah, that's how I feel about that.

It's like good impetus for hiring a I feel like these, like some of the best professionals are masters of delegation and leveraging virtual assistants and things like that. So you can get to a point where yes, this stuff is critical work. It's the unsexy work, you don't want to do it. But you can build these systems where it's ultimately delegated and then 99 percent of your time is [01:16:00] going towards that critical work that you really want to be spending your time on.

Yeah, and it's hard. It's like, as you grow, it's like, I, you get all these opportunities when you grow. You get all these new people. And you get excited by it, but then you start to resent it. Because it takes you away from the thing you actually need to be doing. And that is 100 percent what happened to me.

I think that happens to a lot of people. And you have to, I'm kind of now on the journey of kind of had a big growth period. Got all these opportunities, got all these people. And now I'm trying to just get back to like, not needing anybody. And yeah, you need the right people. You need the right collaborations, the right partners.

But like, You know what I mean? It's like, you get all these new things and then they take you away from the thing that actually matters, writing about obsession. And you have to get back. And it can be challenging. Yeah, well, it's funny you say that because you put out a tweet yesterday that exploded, which is a sign that like that really resonated with a lot of people.

And I think it said, Loneliness at some point in your life is a requirement for [01:17:00] delusional confidence to be born. So that's what you kind of just reminded me of. It's the core truth. 100%. All my delusional confidence was from, um, spending a lot of time alone in like early college. I wasn't really like this before that.

I always had like some type of energy, right? Some type of intensity with soccer, but my like delusion, all these dreams were, were like, I call it incubation, the incubation where it just has time to fester and sit there. It's like all these chemicals in your mind mixing together. And it was in college when I was alone a lot, I was single for most of it.

And I was just, I would work out at the gym at night alone. You do that for days and months and years. And. You develop something special. I think you can. And the problem comes when too many people enter and bring their kind of reality and their expectations of you into your world. And that kind of like simmers down.

But if you give it a lot of time. I also spent a lot of time doing those photo booth events. I was alone. I basically worked every weekend for like five, six years working [01:18:00] events. People don't realize that about me. And um, when they see my content. Um, and I don't talk about it that much. Bye. Think about how much time that is alone, feeling like an outsider.

I was at these weddings, but I was like, I was working. I was alone and just in my head. And I was never, ever thinking about the weddings. I was never thinking about the photo booths. I never cared about photo booths ever, ever. It was only a vehicle to get to do the stuff I'm doing now since day one. And, and I cared about them in ways that they can make me money and give me freedom and be a good product.

But outside of that. I don't care at all, and I know a lot of entrepreneurs can relate to that with like early businesses especially, but yeah I would just be at these events in my head like thinking of what I wanted to do and like I'm doing a lot of that stuff now, and I have to remind myself, but um If I didn't have that period, and I know, and I would go for long drives, man.

I would just, I would go to these events, they would be an hour, two hours, and that's [01:19:00] five hours away, just in the car, alone. That changes a person. And a lot of people, I think, in their early 20s don't go through that. Most don't. Like, most guys did not spend every weekend working for years. No. Most. That 100 percent changed me.

Yeah, it's, it's so, what you're saying is so important for people to, like, inject that into their conscious or subconscious mind because it's so comfortable and we're so conditioned to constantly be around other people. It's almost like, if you spend time, like, if you want to be by yourself, like you fit this loner archetype, which isn't true at all.

I never thought about this until you're, you're speaking, but like a lot of the, my most important beliefs that I've held about myself that I've developed have come from me going on a 20 mile run or being alone at the gym or getting coffee and taking a long walk by myself. So almost like break, like almost like break out of everyone's self limiting beliefs and develop my actual beliefs about myself too.

It's so important. It's [01:20:00] reminding yourself, like if, if, Being an outsider is what it really is. It's like, being an outsider I think can be incredibly good for someone who is obsessed. Because being an outsider is the only way you can kind of develop it. Where no one can bother you. And no one can change the way you're thinking about your work or your goals.

If you do have that tendency, the more you resist it, I think you'll start to resent these people and yourself. And I felt that I talk about like, old relationships and like, painful vacations. Where you're not where you want to be in life. And you go on this vacation with like, your girlfriend's family or something.

And you're at this incredible resort, five stars, pina coladas, sitting by the pool, looking at the most beautiful view. But you're just in the most insane amount of pain. Because deep down, you know, you're You know that you haven't done shit. Yeah. And you're out there enjoying it, and you feel like you're dying inside.

Mm. And sure, that is ungrateful as hell. If you have a path you're meant to go down, you have to [01:21:00] realize that feeling. Yes. And I felt that feeling every single time I was doing that stuff. Because I was doing that stuff. I was in a relationship, and it's the stuff you do. But it doesn't have to be. Yeah. It doesn't have to be.

You can go down and do this other thing. And, the moment I realized that and accepted that I am this way and have to do these things, my whole life opened up. Hmm. I want to go get that view. Give me, you know, when I deserve it. Yeah. I want to pay for it. I want to like, I was, you know, I didn't even pay for it though sometimes.

And, um, because it was a family thing, whatever. But, yeah, it's really important. It's super important. It's so important. Yeah, and it's also like, um, Yeah, that's all I have to say there. Yeah. Well, brother. That was a good ending. Dude, I, um, I just want to thank you, man. I mean, I genuinely, even though we don't see each other that much, we stay in really close contact.

And whether we're communicating over the phone, we're texting, it's like, I do feel like we're communicating because I draw [01:22:00] so much strength and inspiration from you. Through the content that you put out in the way that you have decided to live your life in the way that you decide to impact other people.

So just know that you've had a profound impact on me and the shift that I've gone through this year. I really needed to go through it and you were a massive catalyst in that and I'm just grateful. That we're as close as we are and I'm honestly just grateful that there are people like you in the world That continue to push the limits at a young age and I just can't wait to see where you are in the next year the next five years the next 10 years because I know it's going to be amazing and you deserve all the success that's to come dude So thank you so much for being you thank you for doing this podcast and i'm just excited for it all Thanks, brother.

It means the world the family's mutual cool. You're a very special friend a small group.