The Meat Mafia Podcast

Harold? We haven't done one of these in a while. Just you and me. You have to stare at my ugly face all day. I mean, this is like basically the everyday for us, so it's all good. Yeah, we um, unfortunately never get tired of each other. We get asked that a lot. We do not. Yeah, what do we need to do to fix that?

Just get into a fist fight. Like Elon Musk, Zuckerberg style? B Zuck. You think Musk pulls that out? I think Zuckerberg's gonna, I think Zuckerberg's gonna kick his ass. He's starting from a way further along point. I hate to say it too because he's just in better shape. We're in team Elon. He may be doing some training in a certain undisclosed location opening soon in Austin, but we'll see.

Yeah, it's pretty cool. I mean, maybe we could train him. Yeah, it's interesting how both of these guys are fighting and they're both on like two ends of the spectrum when it comes to freedom of speech and social media public perception. Yeah, I actually don't really know how to fully unpack that because I feel like I don't, I mean, I have my assumptions about Elon, but I don't really fully understand Zuck.

Like I know it seems like he's much more anti free speech, but I don't know. I feel like there's a lot of like messaging around that and like things that kind of propagate that that idea That I'm not fully convinced is like necessarily true. You know what I mean? Yeah, like you take Jack as a good example I think Jack because he was the founder of Twitter.

They just associated him with the suppression of speech when Seemed like maybe he was just kind of bottlenecked by the C suite that he had built around him. Um, so you wonder does Mark, where does Mark fall in that camp and will we ever find out? Yeah, I mean there was definitely some evidence during COVID that he was probably on the further end of the spectrum in terms of free speech stuff, but I think Elon and Jack, Jack more so, is definitely fighting the good fight.

Big Bitcoin, trying to do big things with just creating more avenues so that there's less censorship, less control. So, we'll see. I could see Jack getting into MMA. Oh, totally. Apparently he surfs all the time. I mean, he just seems like he's actually a cool guy, whereas like all these other guys are like...

Trying to like play the role like Jack like surfs a bunch and and uh, this seems like he's pretty active and thoughtful I know he was doing OMAD one day at one point, but I think it was like a plant based OMAD Oh God, and I'm wondering since he's a bit coiner. Has he gotten the meat red pill yet? That's our job, dude.

It's a matter of time. We can make that happen. We gotta pill him. If anyone here listening has a way for us to red meat pill Jack, let us know. Is that the way you want to phrase that? Meat pill him. Non sexually meat pill him. Yeah, I mean, I think it's possible. It's one of those things that once you experience it, like the guy we were talking to today, he was vegetarian for three years and then had lean chicken, which, I mean.

That's a good start, but there's a massive difference between lean chicken and like fatty ground beef. Yeah, he's on like step one of his journey of if you think of these things as a progression. Number one is he got off processed food and he starts going plant based. Anyone that gets off processed food, even if it's plant based real foods, they're still gonna feel far better up to a point because the nutrient deficiency will eventually kick in.

Yeah. And now he's on like that next phase where he's eating animal products, but he still falls into like the saturated fat is bad camp. So it's all lean cuts of chicken and fish and eggs and... Things like that. Um, it's funny where people settle into like they get better and then they stop questioning Can they get even more better?

Like is there a further is there a further limit to how I can feel with this and with him? It was like we were both sitting there going like semi eye rolling me like yeah, there's more to it, dude You should definitely start incorporating some saturated fat and beef. Yeah, it's a good point. I am I went to my cousin's bachelor party in Fort Lauderdale three weeks ago and I had this really interesting late night conversation with one of my cousin's other groomsmen who is a founder of a tech company based in North Carolina and he was kind of pushing back on the carnivore diet and animal products because he's been vegetarian for 10 years.

I think through religious reasons, but he doesn't eat is meat.

And he was saying that if I was a professional athlete, I completely agree that fully incorporating animal products would make me feel like I'm my best. But I am not a professional athlete, so I don't understand why I need to feel that good. And I was like, don't you want to at least like tap in to see how you actually would feel?

I also just totally disagree with that, like, perspective. Why would you not want to feel like a professional athlete? Exactly. Like, that, that blows my mind. Like, those guys probably... I mean, I know that they feel amazing. They're as fit as they could possibly be. There's no setbacks in their health other than injuries through playing sport.

And it's like, yeah, if you can operate at that physical level, why wouldn't you try to do that? Yeah, the point that he brings up is something that we've talked about before and it's like, how do you convince someone that's maybe not in the best shape or the best metabolic health to actually incorporate some of these products?

It's very difficult because most people, their baseline is so low, but it's almost like consistently flat or sometimes it takes like a traumatic event or a disease or an illness to force you to start being so intentional about your health. You start reincorporating these really good foods that we know work and our audience knows works for us.

And then they feel amazing. And they have that comparison metric where they're like, wow, if I eat these foods, I feel amazing. But then I can't believe I let myself go 20 years feeling like this. So this guy's kind of just been consistently flat like this. So how do you get a guy that's consistently flat to be like, dude, just try it.

Yeah, it's tough. I mean, you have to have that like innate desire to want to see some change in your life at a certain point. Like no one's going to force it on you and you're going to have to want to do the experimentation for yourself. But yeah, I mean the convincing, it's like once you try it, once you do it for seven days hard, 14 days hard and build some momentum, then you see the opportunity there where it's like, okay, I can.

Actually start to see change quickly if I just continue down this path and it's like all additive like you can start by Walking a little bit more you can start by getting better sleep Then incorporating more animal food products cutting out processed foods like all of these things don't need to all happen at once But you do need to start making those Changes one at a time and build them up and just being consistent Yeah, it was Angela who said stacking the paper in the same spot every day that stuck with me That was such a good frame so good.

Yeah Yeah, it's incredible and obviously like Since that conversation you've been going to the gym 5 a. m. Every single day. Don't miss a day You go every day whether you get eight hours of sleep two hours of sleep. I hear the the door open you're out the door It's like just stacking those winds you found the thing that's consistent for you that's gonna make you feel like you're at your best and you just don't miss and I was gone for 20 days.

I came back and your physique already looked significantly better. You looked healthier and it's like, dude, that's all it takes is a little over two weeks of being consistent to see impactful change. Yeah, definitely. And I feel like for myself, I know, you know, obviously things happen in life and you go through certain periods where you're way more intense with things or you're, you know, you, you need to back off a little bit or you, you just have energy that you need to redirect into certain directions.

And now where I'm trying to frame is how can I just do like the minimum viable dose? To not just like drain my tank, but really just optimize for controlling the energy output that I have throughout the day. It was something that Nate Pontius talked about where it's like, you should be training for your lifestyle, like the life you want to have.

And so what I'm trying to do is like, I usually don't show up to the gym with a full, fully baked out plan. And it's kind of intentional because I want to make sure that I spend 10 to 15 minutes walking on the treadmill. at a three mile per hour pace and a 15 degree incline every day. And that's my time to kind of map out like what I want to do.

And it's more of like a feel it out type of process, but just set the bar super low where it's like show up to the gym 15 minutes on the trip or a 10, 15 minutes on a treadmill. And like, that's my minimum. And then from there, it's like, okay, maybe it's just like a stretching day where I spend some time stretching doing core, but other days I've got, you know, I know what my schedule looks like, know that I have a little bit more in the tank and I'm ready to do like a full blown heavy leg day.

That's kind of how I'm trying to feel it out and be a little bit less rigid and structured in that way and a little bit more adaptive. Um, so like having the structure where it's like you show up every day, you do that one thing, but then have a little bit of fluidity. But so your minimum, your minimum viable dose is the treadmill.

So it's like, you're going to do the incline walk like you talked about, maybe you'll do heavy deadlifts, ring pull ups, whatever, crush it. Maybe one day, like you said, honestly, I'm tired, but I'm still going to do this. It's going to set my foundation. I'm going to sweat a little bit and then I'm just going to stretch.

I'm going to go in the sauna, but you still did something like you're still stacking that paper like Angela talked about. Yeah, definitely. And I mean. Like you were saying, there was a, there was a few, like, there was like a week where I was probably, I was literally not getting much sleep at all. So, sometimes that can channel my focus, like, I don't know how you feel about this, but sometimes when I don't get a lot of sleep, it can channel my focus for a short period of time.

It's probably just cortisol jacked up, like, you know, like a higher stress zone. But then other times you get a little bit of sleep and you're like, dude, I literally can't even walk on the treadmill today. So totally there was like that first week period where I was showing up very little sleep and just able to do a lot because my body was being pushed in that way.

And like, for whatever reason I was in that state, but. It's not sustainable. So you need to like just figure out when to pull off and when to lean into doing heavier stuff and And actually like setting some goals for yourself with some of that heavier stuff. So over time you're actually working towards something, too Yeah, that's important.

Yeah, you touch on a good point and I know Stan efforting he's like the goat with strength fitness all that good stuff. He says Um, what does he say? He, he says if you're skipping sleep so you can go to the gym, you're essentially skipping over a dollar bill to pick up a dime. And I get what he's saying by that because like if you, if you want to optimize your hormones, eight hours of sleep doing an afternoon training session.

All that stuff is super viable. I'm sure the science backs it up. That's also not why you train and not why I train. It's like we're busy guys. We're building two brands right now. We're injecting our heart and soul into both of those things. And sleep is just going to have to be compromised sometimes.

But we both know that. If you do, just get your ass up and go to the gym, even if it's for a 30 minute session, the mental clarity that you get from that sweat from that session, that's why you're doing it. Because Harry, when he trains at five is a fundamentally different person than Harry, the version of Harry who doesn't train at five o'clock.

You said this a while back and it stuck with me. It was something along the lines of we were doing those runs early on in the year, three mile runs. And afterwards we always felt so good. And it was just like, how can we afford not to do these three mile runs when we know that it brings out the best in ourself?

And I think if you're someone who's looking to do something big, start something, start a company, have a creative project or make like a big change in your life, whether it's like leave a job and like just build some momentum, it's important to show up every day at the best version of yourself. And if you can do that through actions that you are under your control, like, yeah, maybe you wake up and you're tired of shit and you don't want to go to the gym.

But just knowing that you can just do that three mile shakeout run or a mile shakeout run like for me It doesn't even feel like I need to do that much to get to that Like all right, I'm like focusing in a little bit of a flow state zone like just focused work on something and moving the body Yeah, we the place that we live now if you if you run a big loop around the neighborhood It's about a mile and a half and that alone I by the time the mile and a half is done Obviously, it's Austin.

So it's a hundred degrees I'm sweating. My heart rate's over 150, 160. That's the goal right there. You feel incredible. And 50, you know, it could take 15 minutes if you're running a 10 minute mile, which is nothing. And you feel so good. Like I remember we were going to church and I had to give my testimony.

So I was a little bit nervous for that because I had never publicly spoken about my faith. And I was like, I don't want to just like go into this cold Turkey. I want to at least do something that's going to put me into that ideal state to speak in front of people. And I was like, I'm going to do that. I just need one loop.

I did one loop. I felt amazing. I showered. I went there and I did the thing and that was it. Dude. And it's also the other side of that is, so I think maybe two weeks later I was doing the announcements at church and I showed up like unprepared. Empty tank of gas and just didn't do a good job with just presenting myself in the way that I would want to And it was all because I just didn't do those like fundamental things in the morning Like I think it was the morning that I got back from that hunt and I got back I wasn't even planning on coming back.

I woke up at 4 Drove two hours like showered ate some food and went to church And gave the announcements and was just totally flat and didn't do like didn't project myself in the way that I wanted to and that is what happens when you don't do the little things to show up for yourself and like put the best foot forward.

Yeah, yeah, it's a good point of accountability that I feel like a lot of people wouldn't admit to but like even just 20 minutes of prep, whether that would have been just looking at your phone having a sense of what you wanted to say. 20 minutes a workout whatever that's all that's all you would need and then you just learn from it You're like great.

Boom. I learned from it never gonna happen again. Yeah. Yeah, don't negotiate yourself with that stuff. Yeah So I know for us the real the real point of this session today So we haven't sat one on one literally in over a year. I was looking back at the podcast We used to do it more virtually when I was in San Diego.

You were here And we're just trying to fill slots. Yeah. Yeah. We've had on so many incredible guests that we've learned from so many experts, so many people that have like shared their vulnerable stories, their expertise, their skillset. It's amazing. That's always going to be a focal point of the show, but we want to give a lot more time to for you and I to be able to talk on topics that we bring up on the show and feel like we have expertise in.

We're definitely going to do another solo rip on nutrition, probably similar to what we used to do a year ago. But for this, a topic that has been coming up more consistently in some of the podcast episodes you've recorded, we've recorded things we've talked about. We feel particularly passionate about men in their twenties.

There's just this or people in their twenties, it could be women too. There's just this general sense of people in their twenties. Being lost they're in a job. They don't love they're not living the life They want to live and they don't necessarily necessarily understand how to dig themselves out of that rut It's obviously something incredibly personal to us because up until a year ago.

We were those people You know, we're still figuring it out We're obviously not finished products at all, but we thought maybe it could be helpful to just talk through like how do you get lost? How can you dig yourself out of that hole? How did we get lost? How do we dig ourselves out of that hole? And end up in the point where we're at now where we're ultimately doing the things that we love to do and we feel like It's we're pursuing god's mission on our heart.

Yeah, totally and i'm a baseball player So I I definitely believe in jinxes and stuff like that. So I feel like there's obviously some level of like, um resistance to start Talking about teachings things that we've learned along the way as we're in the thick of what we believe to be building like our life's mission and and Through noble the product in the meat mafia podcast But I do also think it's really important to like look backwards and try to give some advice to people who were in your position Two three years ago, and I know we talked about this a lot where it's just like man I just like, I wish I could have had some of this information back when I was 20, 22, and there was, there was, and, and definitely, um, that information was definitely out there, like people like Tim Ferris was someone that I would lean to, and I think that it was like kind of the person who planted seeds for me wanting to eventually do something for myself, but never listened to it.

So I think it's important to just set the stage where it's like, yeah, You know, the information's out there. It's all all about coming across it at the right time. Um, and just, I think for us, just being excited to be able to share some of the things that we've learned through this whole process, because it is important to share.

It is important to get the information out there and inspire other people to do what, what they're called to do. Definitely. Like if you're happy with what you're doing, that's great. Like, fuck. Yeah, that's such a win, but at least pursue life on your terms Maybe those terms are working a corporate job and creating a c suite position for yourself.

Maybe that's being a doctor Maybe that's starting a podcast. Maybe that's starting a supplement company Yeah, it's all personal to you But the number one thing is the belief that you actually can Achieve those things and are you actually living life on your terms? Like if you're working a sales job and you're making great money And it's not ultimately what you want to be doing.

If you're going to bed at night and you're journaling and you're reflecting and you kind of just feel this sense of emptiness. Well, that's a sign that God is literally speaking to you, telling you that these things are not ultimately what you're supposed to be doing. And if you don't take that radical change or do some very simple things to get yourself out of it, you know, maybe you're going to look back and when you're 75 and be like, well, fuck, what about that thing that's been lodged in my brain for 50 years?

And I think that that's something that you and I both experienced. Um, so maybe we could talk to. Maybe where you were when you were like 28 years old towards the end of your stint in Boston working in 27, um, you know, working a private equity job, you know, living a life. Maybe that wasn't ultimately aligned with what Harry was supposed to be doing.

Yeah, I think what was important for me was realizing the fact that I needed to make a change and then kind of putting myself in. my shoes like two or three years down the road and the easiest way to do that for me was just associating with the people that I wanted to be like that's usually like a pretty good frame for me like just trying to like imitate in some ways like who inspires you that's like two or three years ahead of you.

And then just like try to do what they're doing, like do what they're doing. And so for me, pulling myself out of a job that I was definitely at the end of the road with, but it was comfortable, right? Like I'd been there for six years. I knew the path forward, what that looked like. I knew I was making pretty good money.

And was going to have more opportunities with that job if I stayed there, but ultimately I tried to not distract myself with the shiny objects or romanticizing what like this entrepreneurial path would look like it was more so how do I take more ownership of my time so I can do the things I want to do in life and not just be like, yeah, I just want to be an entrepreneur so I can drive a nice car, have a nice house, all these things.

It's like, I really just wanted to have the freedom to travel when I wanted to travel or spend time, you know, five, 10 years from now. Yeah. Investing more time into my family, uh, when that time comes for me. So just like really getting close to those thoughts and like figuring out why you want to make that type of change was important because it's a hard decision to, I mean, I did like a one 80, um, moving from, A job that I've been in for six years to basically not really having a fully mapped out plan, but having some Indicators that would led me to have enough confidence to make a move um, you know, I think i've talked about it on the show a little bit, but What ultimately pulled me out of the position was one not really not really fully loving what I was doing And I kind of had to break that out down into two things where it was is it the company or is it kind of just the position in general of like being an associate at a Investment management fund and I had an up another opportunity in Florida.

So it'll be a change of city different opportunity same role and So that that was being dangled in front of my face when I was making this decision of moving down to Austin, and then I had to kind of break it down from, well, do I want to just do something completely different? Like, is my heart actually in this investment management role in general?

And for me, it was kind of clear that I wanted to be doing something different. So I kind of knew what I didn't want to do, which was that whole entire role in general. And I knew if I had kind of. Try something else out and wanted to come back to it. I could I probably would have delayed my career growth a little bit, but ultimately I was comfortable making that decision where I was like.

At least I tried. Like 10, 15 years from now, I wouldn't have lived with any regret, and I think that's probably the most important thing. So, I ended up applying for some jobs that were just like complete, like moonshots, just random things. What type of jobs? Um, well, I mean, the one that I ended up really pursuing was, uh, chief of staff role for Justin Maris, who's down here in Austin.

And a buddy of mine, Koger, had sent it to me. I'll be enough. I remember the the hook It was if you have a friend who is following a ketogenic diet or a keto diet And you think this role might be interesting to them. It's like send it to him something along the lines There's better copies in the hook better copy than that, but that was it and He sent it to me and I remember Being like damn, this is kind of exactly what I'm looking for I don't know exactly what I want to do, but I want to be around the right people So it would have been the position would have been me working kind of like under it was kind of half baked But it was like working under someone who I'm incredibly impressed by doing really cool things started a bunch of brands Working in the health and wellness space at the time.

He had kettle and fire perfect keto under his belt He was working on launching a no alcohol Brand called Shirley, no alcoholic wine company called Shirley. I was like damn This is like kind of the space I want to be in so that again go back go going back to like the frame Frame of mind that or framework that you need to think through it's like is this someone that you're impressed by and kind of like Want to pursue a similar path That was just a yes for me.

So I was like, I need to do whatever I can to just continue, at least continue this conversation and get in front of this guy. So I sent him this crazy ass email. I'll have to post that at some point, but it was just as long email that was part of the process. I think there was a few things, but the email was the most important part.

How much time did you take to write that first email? I did one of those like late night sessions that I do and just like, yeah. Stayed up probably until yeah, I don't know when but just stayed up late and worked hours I mean it was it was probably the most hard I put into an email in my life. Probably three hours.

For sure I'm guessing it was around three hours, which isn't for the average person. It's like that's insane you spent Three hours for one email. Yeah, you're like no, this is literally an investment in the future that I want myself So I'm going to work all night to create the perfect email for this guy Yeah, and when you put your heart into something, you know, you know it right and so that's another good indicator, too Or it's like if you're just willing to just do whatever it takes to get that role You're gonna stand out you're at least gonna follow up call if your heart is fully in just putting the best email together You're going to stand out.

And so that was important to me to just spend a lot of time making sure that email was badass. So I just told him like my vision for what I wanted to do in the future. It was totally, it was something along the lines of like starting a farm and. And, uh, raise my own animals and having a brand, like having some sort of like business success along the way and, um, I think it resonated with him.

I think he was probably in maybe a similar state of mind and he was like, Oh, this seems like a type of person that could be a good fit for the role. And then got a follow up with him. Things progressed. Went through the interview process, ultimately ended up getting to a point where like we, he didn't necessarily need to hire for the role, but I pitched him on through the process.

I pitched him a business idea as part of the interview and, um, pitch him on the idea of like partnering on it. And it was totally half baked, but he was like, yeah, dude, if you're willing to work on it, like, you know, I'm happy to like mentor and advise. And at that point I was just like, I just need to, I just need to like get to the right place and I need to like get to Austin and like, yeah.

Just be around the right people. Even if this doesn't work out, it'll be the right move because if I got his attention Through this whole process and this is the area that I think I want to be in there will be more Conversations similar to this to happen if I just put myself in the right place Mmm, so that was kind of my framework of thinking there and there was a few moments where like through that whole process There was I had kind of agreed with him That I would do that.

And then there was a moment where I was going to move to Salt Lake City. And that was, that would have been like a total mistake. Yeah. Um, that would have been me deviating from the plan altogether. And so I had a few buddies who kind of talked me out of that, Ben and Casey. And, um, they, they were just like, dude, what are you doing?

You definitely need to be in Austin if you're going to make this thing work. And I was like. Yeah, they're right. And, um, so moved to Austin, moved out of my, my place in Boston, got down here quickly, tried to start implementing myself in different pockets of the community down here. And that was really just the most important thing I could possibly do, was just being around different people, doing things that were at least interesting to me that could inspire me in some way to like, Piece together this person that I wanted to end up being yeah There's so much good stuff that you just said I'm gonna try and figure out how to parse out Some of the questions that I had or nuggets the ball over the place.

No, it was so it was so good I feel like I even learn more about you from that But the first decision tree that you went through was like is it the job? Or is it the location itself, the geographic location? So you were like, all right, I basically have the same job that I could do in Florida. Dude. In this job, I was like, it, it, it was like West Palm beach, better pay.

It would have been like, that would have been like the mega trap. Like if I wasn't fully, I needed to be fully sure that I was ready to go with like another similar setup. No, for sure. But the reason why I say that and why it's so important is that there are, for some people, it's like, you should actually ask yourself, Is the job right for me or is just the location may be wrong for me?

Like maybe you are in a, maybe you're in a financial role and you actually like the work itself, but maybe you don't like the company or you don't like the city that you're in. Maybe you need to go New York to Austin. Maybe you need to go LA to Miami. Like you should actually sit with yourself and think that like maybe you actually just need a location and lifestyle change and can still do the same work.

And maybe that's your catalyst for doing really, really good work and be able to crush it. But you have to ask yourselves those questions. So for you, it's like, You asked yourself that question. You were like, now, Florida, even though it would be amazing, my lifestyle would be better. This ultimately isn't the work that I want to be doing.

But you found the guy that was in this general sphere of the stuff that you were interested in. It was like, you had gone keto, you had gone paleo, you were reading the carnivore code, you bought me a copy of the carnivore code and sent it to me. I was using his products. You were using, yeah, you were using his products.

And you saw this guy that was like, I don't necessarily know completely what the role is, but this is a guy that I can learn from. This is an industry that I want to be in. I can combine my business skillset in this health and wellness space, and I'm going to do whatever I can just to get on this guy's radar because I know that if I do that, really good things will happen.

Yeah. And another thing too, I, there was a lot of layers to the whole thing too, right? Like. Um, I was, I was in a role that I probably shouldn't have been in to begin with. Like, I, I think that my gifts are like, it's weird talking about that, but like, I think my skill set is just better suited for something that's more marketing, more creative.

And that wasn't really able to be like brought out in me and the role that I was in. And so there was layers of like, yeah, it could have been the company. Yeah. It could have been the team that I was around that I, and it wasn't like all these things that were like considerations of like why you would want to leave a job.

Yeah. Maybe it was the city that I was in, but, uh, yeah, for me it was just. Kind of a lot of unanswered questions that I was like, I just need to do a hard break here and just kind of put my back against the wall a little bit so I would be forced to answer some of those questions. It's another good nugget because I think a lot of people maybe haven't taken the inventory of themselves to think about like, what actually is my zone of genius?

What are my gifts? Like you should literally go on a notepad. We've both done this and make a list of the things that you think you're really fucking good at. And is your job actually scratching those itch and, and actually serving the gifts that you've been given from God or not? And what you mentioned is that, you know, you were a finance major in college, you were in a very quant driven role at CBRE.

Proficiency is different than a gift. Anyone can invest the hours and become proficient at something. But if you go down that path, is that actually going to be the unlock to those gifts that you've been given? And you clearly identified that it wasn't gonna be, which was another catalyst for change. Um, something I wanted to talk about with you that I think we should give a little bit of time to is you had mentioned the decision to go out to Salt Lake City, which was actually a massive decision because people don't know this because you were planning to move out there with your ex, your now ex who you had been dating for almost a decade, who was kind of ready to make that next step.

So for a lot of young people, I think they view, they view these big life decisions as super binary, where it's like, All right, I'm either going to go to Salt Lake City, and this is going to be my path, or I'm going to do this. You obviously felt that you kind of pulled yourself back from the brink and ultimately recognized that that wasn't the right thing for you.

I don't know, could you maybe talk through like strategies or just things that helped you with your mindset to pull yourself out of making that decision that ultimately you didn't think was the right thing for you? I think I would have moved to Salt Lake City if it wasn't for having the right people.

Your friends, really? For sure. Yeah, I was feeling pressure to, to accommodate a little bit. I think at that point, like I was trying to make things work potentially and, uh, I was thinking of that as like a potential middle ground. Um, yeah, and I think if they hadn't have just been like, dude, this is not it.

I know you want to go. Live in Salt Lake because the lifestyle there seems like it would be fitting for you, and it definitely would have been. I just don't think that nearly as many opportunities in terms of like what I really wanted to be doing with my time in terms of business stuff was would be in Salt Lake and um, I was I think if there wasn't hesitation going into that decision like I was in a fully like fuck Yes, let's go Salt Lake City If there wasn't a little bit of hesitation and reluctance there, then I probably wouldn't have been receptive to them saying that to me.

But there was. So I think just being open to, I mean, just having the right people in your corner and then being open to. feedback from people that you actually trust and care about. I mean, these are like my two roommates from college. I live with for three years, three years, live with one of them after college.

Like these are, these are like my best friends, you know? So when they said that, I'm like, all right, you know, they're seeing something I'm not. Yeah. That's a good point. Um, and it's a major unlock to have true genuine friends that will give you the feedback that maybe you don't want to hear, but you actually need to hear.

And if you're not necessarily getting that feedback from people that are keeping you accountable, there's something that's probably going wrong with your life or the people that you're surrounding yourself with. But something you can do is if you feel like you want that honest accountability, Greg Schoenberg told us, told this to us on our episode is, Ask your closest friends to send you an email, have them put some time into it, and just address the actual weaknesses that they think that you have, so you can read it, you can digest it, and you can actually approve upon it, like, everyone should be going through that feedback of having that, that, that accountable feedback so you can take ownership from your friends, and I think something that Bennett and Casey realized is that, You have this incredible, incredibly adventurous personality.

You're also trying to maybe make this relationship work. And they were also like, when you look back in your life, are you actually going to be happy with that decision? It was almost like you were able to reverse engineer the outcome of where Harry would be at 75. If he went down this path, you didn't like what you saw.

So then you kind of re engineered the course. And went all in on this, um, this Austin opportunity. Yeah, I think the idea of making decisions without regret is important. Like, if it's not something your heart is fully in, you definitely need to at least take inventory of it and figure out a plan out of it.

I was definitely in a moment in time where I was ready to take action in a number of different areas of my life. It was just, um, yeah, I think there was, there would have been a lot of regret if I hadn't have made the move down to Austin and put my heart where it was supposed to be. And so you fall into the camp of someone that just fully burned the boats for the future that you wanted.

So when we talk practicalities of burning the boats, there's so much fear around that from like a financial perspective. So I'm just curious, did you calculate, you know, your runway if you weren't making money for a year? Did you sell investments? Did you sell your 401k? I don't know, just maybe some practical things that you did or didn't do that you think could be helpful for someone that's like I need that hard break.

I have to just quit. I don't know what the next opportunity is, but I need to get out of this job so I can figure out what that calling is that I'm supposed to be doing. Yeah, I think, uh, the answer is I didn't calculate a burn rate, but I calculated in my, or I came to terms in my head that I was willing to go to zero because I knew I didn't have enough answers in my life.

That I had formed for myself, that what I wanted to be doing with my time was what I wanted to be doing with my time. So I effectively told myself, I'm willing to just like drain it, like just restart it, restart the whole thing in order to figure out what I wanted to do. Cause in my mind it's like, Why would you not what you're sacrificing your entire future if you don't have those answers?

Mm hmm, like if we weren't sitting here right now doing what we're loving doing I mean, can you imagine a different world? Like you have to kind of figure out really where you want to be and it adapts you like that changes But I think I just got into a point where I was very complacent in life in general And I really needed to shake it up and just accept the fact that there's probably a real outcome where I do, I do like really impair my finances because I just want to figure out what I really want to be doing with my time for the rest of my life.

Things will work. If you look in a long enough, over a long enough time period, it'll work out. Yes. But you need to figure out what you want to be doing. So you're doing work that actually means something to you. Yeah. You had basically accepted the fact that. on this path, you're going to have to literally kill me to stop me.

So as a result of that, you're willing to go to zero to make this thing work like you just said. And I think the issue that a lot of people make is that when they're pursuing this entrepreneurial or quote unquote unconventional path, they hold, they cling onto these like corporate notions of success. So like so many people self identify with.

The money in their bank account, the 401k, like this security buffer. And it's like, yes, that all makes sense. If you have overhead, if you have children, if you're working this corporate path for you, you're like, I'm young, I'm single, I'm now going to go down the entrepreneurial path. So it's actually might be more valuable for me.

to sell my 401k that would maybe return eight 8% a year and make me X amount of dollars when I'm 75 and I'm about to croak versus like if I could take this capital, it's going to get hit with a tax, but then I could invest it into my business. What if I could build this incredible brand that would make me way more money than a 401k would ever make.

And there's a risk associated with doing that, but there's also a fucking massive risk. And saying, staying in something that you're not meant to do, we don't think about risk from that perspective and it drives us insane. Yeah, no, it's such a good point. And I totally felt, I mean, in the corporate world, I fell for that trap of just like save, you know, save away, save away, and it's not necessarily a trap if you're doing something you like and there's like a clear road map forward to what you want to be doing with your time.

But I think, obviously where I was, it was just like, dude, if you have money in the bank, And you can buy yourself a little bit of time to answer some of these questions. You should spend that money on figuring out. What you should be doing right now and for the next 10 years with that money Otherwise, it's just sitting there accruing a lifestyle that you don't want to like you don't want to be living Yeah, and you know time is fleeting man like Who the hell knows what's going to happen, uh, to, to anyone, things change quickly.

Um, people come in and out of your life, uh, important people, family come in and out of your life. And I just think that you need to live for the present and try to learn from the past and not get too caught up with the fear of what could happen in the future. There's like my early 20s self was definitely living.

And making decisions based on fear, and that is just always going to put you in a bad spot. Yeah, we have no, we just have a fundamental misunderstanding of what risk actually is. And I remember thinking about this a lot a few years ago, being like, I'm at this big company. I would love to be like the C suite one day.

That's like my master goal. But like this entrepreneurial path that I'm writing about, and I'm thinking about, and I'm consuming all this content around this thing, that's the risky thing. And I'm like, what's actually far riskier is trying to become a C suite at a massive company, doing something that you don't enjoy.

Like the odds of you actually, if you're listening to this, becoming a C suite exec at a huge company, it's abysmally low. And then it's not even really all in your control. There's so many things that can happen to derail that. I mean, it's somebody else's choice to put you in that place. You're, yeah, you're giving up, like, your locus of control.

Yeah. Right? Um, yeah. So you kind of fall into the burn the boats camp. I was, through our pursuits, I was definitely a little bit more gradual, and that's where I think you and I play off of each other really well. While you were in Boston, I was in New York. I was working a tech sales job. I was employee number 30 at this really small insure tech company.

And I was the first sales rep that they hired. And I think for anyone that maybe isn't ready to maybe take the step to go out on their own, I think gaining sales expertise and experience is one of the best investments that you can make. I know that's something that you and I talk a lot about is like you saying in Siberia, I wish I just was like a little bit more front facing.

I just got lucky cause I got this job. And I was the only sales rep there and we had to sell our product to owners of these different companies, people that were 40, 50, 60 years old. And so they're naturally viewing me as this 24 year old kid. So I was faced very quickly with needing to, you know, build relationships, figure out how to actually make a sale to people that were very experienced and like the skill set that I learned doing that.

is the same skill set that we apply now to getting guests, building noble, you know, closing investor deals, all that kind of stuff. So anyone in their twenties that doesn't necessarily necessarily know what that entrepreneurial path looks like, if you're going to take a job, I would recommend taking a job in sales because sales is a fundamental aspect of life.

Whether you're working a job, whether you're trying to court your future wife, whatever it is, you're always selling yourself. I think a lot of people miss that. And that was something I got exposure to at a young age that I'm super grateful for. Um, but even being in that job, it was similar to what you were saying.

I remember thinking, I think I'm good at this, but I don't think that selling technology is ultimately what I'm meant to be doing. And um, as we've talked about extensively, I had my own carnivore journey. And I was just obsessed with nutrition and figuring out what combinations of food really make me feel like I'm at my best.

It was all I was researching. It was all I was writing about. And then anytime a friend asked me about my diet or wanted help weight training or figuring out the right foods to eat, I would like put together these. Thank you. Got a little hairball, maybe a hairball in the throat. I would, I would literally make these customized plans for people and I don't even know why I just love doing it.

So there was like check from God. It's like, dude, he's literally telling you what you're, if you're willing to do something for free outside of your working hours, that's probably a sign that that's what you're supposed to be doing. Yeah. I remember being young and this to your point and like knowing you just like know what you're interested in.

And it's a shame that a lot of things steer you away from those interests because you clearly have. A massive interest in the health space, it's then applied to your life to help you fix some of the problems that you're having. So there's like multiple layers to it. Um, yeah, it's just you got to follow that interest because that becomes obsession.

And that's when you start to tap into the magic and the gold nuggets that. can actually breathe the life that you want, where you're doing things that actually provide meaning to you and in your life and you're helping other people along the way. Such a good point. And I don't know if this is a good piece of advice or a bad piece of advice, but it reminds me of what you said of like finding either a great business partner, a great friend, whoever, someone that can kind of give you the kick in the ass that you need.

Because for me, a huge catalyst moment was sitting down and wanting to write this blog article about how I healed my stomach. I literally in New York wrote it like three to five times. I scrapped it every single time. I threw, I clumped the ball up and threw it off the wall cause I'm just like, I just didn't think it was good enough.

I was trying to be so perfect and then you were the one when we decided that we wanted to try and make something, you said, dude, you have a great story. No one's going to benefit or potentially be able to heal if you don't just release the first version of it. So you finally just pushed me to write that first blog, which I then turned into a Twitter thread.

Um, I had joined soul bras discord group because I had followed soul bra for two years and I was like, There's ever an opportunity for me to maybe connect with him. It's this smaller community where I'll get direct access to him. So similar to your Justin Mares piece of advice is like Find a way even if it's digital To put yourself in the room with the people that you really look up to and admire so you can meet them you can connect With them and you can benefit from just getting to know retweeted it

I got 250 followers and then for both of us, it was like, okay, threads really work. You can actually build an audience. People are starting to gravitate towards you for your expertise and maybe there's a brand that could be built around this. So for both of us, it was like we meticulously followed Sahil Bloom and Nick Huber, who are two guys that are not in the nutrition space, they're more in the finance money, Twitter side of things, but they wrote incredible threads.

So we just took their playbook. We were like, let's tell really good stories about nutrition, fitness, things that have worked for us, and let's write them really well. Every time we would write a thread, our audience would grow. And we're looking back and we're like, damn, we have like 3, 000 followers, 5, 000 followers, 10, 000.

Holy shit. This one thread that blew up, got us 50, 000 followers. Like, and now we have an entire brand, which then launched the podcast, which now launched Noble all built off the backs of building an online audience. So I think that's, I don't know, I just think that there's so much value for someone. and just figuring out what your social media platform is and just start building an audience, even if it's for free and making no money.

Definitely. Did you realize that you had an ability to write before you sat down and wrote that, that piece? It's a good question. Um, when I was a kid, I actually loved to write. English was my favorite class. I loved to write short stories like fiction, non fiction, whatever. What would you write about?

Probably superheroes. Meat man? But no, but I remember like when you'd have to um, like share your uh, you'd have to like share your essay or something with the class or like your piece of like creative writing, I would love to just share it with people. I actually forgot about that. Just your wacky ideas.

My crazy ideas, my descriptive metaphors. But like a lot of things, I think society. It's a lot of these gifts out of you and I just kind of lost lost my my quote unquote passion for it Or they just or they just don't get nurtured in the right way. Definitely, you know, like You just might not have had the right teacher to be like, wow, Brett's really gifted at this.

Let's, let me encourage him in the right way. Definitely. Yeah, it's a good point. Again, you, a lot of times these things that you're interested in at a young age, they resurface because it's like God's calling of what you're supposed to be doing. But the threads for both of us, it was this, it was this very tangible playbook of like, we put in really good research and we treat this like a full time job.

This is a gateway to grow this brand that we want to have. And I, we personally both think that Twitter is the most, um, practical ability to scale an audience, but maybe it's Instagram, maybe it's TikTok, maybe it's YouTube, maybe it's some other platform, but like, figure out what that, that medium is for you, whether it's writing, whether it's speaking, whether it's creating short form content, And just start like violently iterating and testing.

And if you do these things over a long enough, uh, long enough time horizon, you will actually have an audience that you can monetize. Yeah. And the, the one thing I wanted to touch on too is the Soulbrow Discord, which is, I joined a different group that was a writing class, writing course. And that really did propel, I think both of us in a lot of ways, just in terms of getting excited about this whole idea of like, Putting stuff out there growing writing more refining our writing getting better at it because we were both moving writing our whole lives but we were new to actually publishing it and hitting send and letting other people see what you know creative things that you're you're thinking about and sometimes those people's just serve their season and Or, or serve their purpose during a, just a season of life for you.

And I think it's important to realize that, like, you can always pushing yourself to find the next mentor and teacher and person who's at the level that you want to be at. Like, I mean, it's a good reminder for both of us where it's like, you know, you don't always like we needed that person for then, but that, that, that person then isn't going to necessarily be the person, you know, five years from now who you need to be learning from.

Definitely. That's such a good point. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We used to be pigeonholed back in the day where it was like, okay, I work this job in New York city. You would have to hope that you could network with someone or have some type of connection with someone in that area or that industry to suck up their, their expertise.

Or now we live in this crazy age of information where it's like all those barriers are gone. We're like multibillionaires are sharing their success and their tips of how they actually got wealthy on a podcast. Like we've never had access to this information. You can write a tweet, get Elon Musk's attention, and then get him to start following you and build a relationship.

Which sounds crazy, but it's actually true because we've seen people do that in our own lives. Like, 90% of our podcast guests and relationships and even investors in Noble have come from people that we sought out and connected with them either digitally or led to an in person connection. But there's so much alpha that people are leaving on the table by not doing that on social media.

Like, if you want to build a brand, the first thing you should do on Twitter is make a list of all the accounts that you admire, follow them, and immediately start either sending a really thoughtful DM or just start commenting on their stuff. And not just commenting with like a couple words, like every comment that you put should be like a standalone tweet.

That's how much effort you should put into it. Like the way that you spent three hours to write that email, it should be a mini version of that for every piece of content. You get on their radar, you get them on a call, you build a relationship and really good things are going to happen. I've even seen that with people who have gotten our attention, just their, their ability to show that their heart is in the work that they're doing.

And it's like, you know, Chi this summer, just being able to get our attention and, you know, fast forward a year from the time that we met him. Until now, like he, he got an opportunity to come live and work with us because he was very thoughtful and his, he was, his heart was burning to like do something in this space and he just wanted to like see that actually come to fruition.

So he was persistent. He just like let, put it all on the table. Even if it wasn't perfect, you could tell that he cared and it was, I mean, that, that shows up. That, that's like a measurable thing that or an immeasurable thing that when people see it, wow, this person could put a lot of time on this. It's a massive indicator that like you could take a shot on someone like that.

A hundred percent. That's such a good point. And if you're in your twenties, you have this unique ability where you have this, like, Youthful energy that draws people in like I think part of the reason why we've gotten guests and have had Some some good success with the brand is like people admire Younger hungry people that are willing to go after what they want.

You have to do in a thoughtful way you can't look like egotistical or arrogant but like If you're young and you send the right person a thoughtful message or whatever your medium is, you'll be shocked at how many people will get on a call with you, meet you for coffee, or find some way to help. They want to help.

It literally, like, your youthful energy pulls them in and, you know, an industry of people that are 40, 50, 60, you immediately stand out by being young and vibrant. Yeah, it was, we were having that conversation with Jay the other day too, where he was talking about people who have put it all on the line, respect other people who are willing to put it all on the line and they want to help you out.

That's definitely something that I was surprised about having started this, this entrepreneurial path is just the willingness of people to be like. There isn't really like a team, like you're not in a company, but there is kind of this team of people out there who are doing their own thing, and they want to help other people out in the best way that they can, so they're willing to offer advice, resources, connections if they can do that, and it's something that I totally didn't realize was going to be a thing when I started this.

I feel like I kind of had the mentality of like, like, get down there, maybe like do it solo, and then we started. You know, talking about things that we could do together and that's all blossomed because the relationships that we've been able to build and people who have been just been willing to help because they know that we're trying to do something big.

I love that. And there's this sense of like, if we were to kind of summarize what we're talking about, it's like take internal inventory of where you are right now. Are you, are you where you want to be? Where do you want to get to? Is the current trajectory going to ultimately let you achieve those end goals?

If it's not, that's okay. But then what is like path BCD EFG potentially look like for you. And if you understand what these general industries are, you should just be building a brand on social media and not, I think everyone should build a brand, but also like. Just start going into those pockets of the space that you want to be in and start building relationships It's a it's a who not how type of thing Mm hmm And if you connect if you put your ass in your heart where you want to be like really good things are gonna happen To you.

Yeah, a hundred percent you made me think of a book and I think it's one of the best books out there just in terms of Kind of helping people come to terms with the fact that they don't necessarily need the perfect idea steal like an artist by Austin Kleon And it's something I think a lot of people struggle with when they realize that they want to do something different, want to do something entrepreneurial, but they don't know what they want to do.

It's, I hear that so often. I have this desire to work for myself. I don't want to be in the corporate world. I just don't know what I want to do. Well, what are, what draws your attention? What five things draw your attention on a day to day basis? Okay, you like health and fitness. Who are the five people that you relate with or the five brands that you relate with most?

Make a little collage of them. That's where you're that's where you aim aim at that target Because the mixture of that plus you will be something unique Yeah, and also understanding type of person are you are you someone that has the risk tolerance where you immediately recognize? Okay, this isn't it.

I'm willing to quit Yeah Calculate my run rate and just figure it out like you did or are you someone maybe a little bit more similar to me? Where you're like, all right I want to see tangible proof that this is actually a thing that I can go into before I quit my job And also change your perspective of don't just say fuck your job.

There are plenty of amazing jobs where. You might not love the work, but you could work two to three hours a day and making great money or good enough money and the rest of your time could be spent on this eventual side hustle or passion project or building a digital brand. Like there's very, there's very different approaches, but again, it's like taking that internal stance, getting your health under control, doing meditation practices, journaling, like figure out who you actually are, where do you want to get to, and there's so many tangible steps that you can take.

And you're young in your 20s, you have so much time, you can fuck up so many times, but also act with a fire under your ass, like that urgency, because next thing you know, you're going to wake up and you're going to be 45 years old and time is going to pass you by.

I was listening to a podcast this morning founders podcast. It was about Michael Jordan and it was talking about Michael Jordan early in this career and how he was overlooked by a lot of people but he Was what was considered a one possession player where he showed up to this he was he I think he went to a small high school and then ended up going to one of these recruiting camps and Got on the floor and a lot of people didn't know his name.

Everyone else was like already committed had big offers And they called him a one possession player because as soon as he touched the ball and went up the court, every scout was like, who the hell is this guy? And they talked about Michael. In a really interesting way where his he basically had this arrogance to him for a long time that pushed him to believe in himself more and more until his abilities and his in his confidence in himself, they basically said he didn't have all that much confidence.

It was just an outward projection of arrogance because he had a chip on his shoulder. There was something missing, but that confidence in himself filled up over time once he proved to himself that his skills We're actually as good as he thought they were so I think it's just a really important point on belief.

You're not always going to pee Like maybe from the jump you just need to take a leap of faith But your belief in yourself over time as you continue to accrue the reps and just get more information and develop your skills Will grow you'll get more confident. You'll be able to have amazing conversations with amazing people if you start podcasting today and three years from now You know, you, you can land big guests or two years from now and you can have insane conversations, but whatever it is you choose to start doing today.

Uh, just do it knowing that you're not necessarily going to need full belief in yourself, but you do need to, you do need to have some level of belief and just continue to work on that because the confidence is a massive factor. If you don't think you can do it, it's not going to happen. Yeah. I love it. I don't want to add anything to it because that's so good and so powerful.

We probably could go for three hours. This is what it's like living with a mute mouth. This is what we're talking about all day long. Jose's tired of it. He doesn't want to hear this shit anymore. Has he muted our mics yet? But, we're about to get kicked out of studio. We're definitely going to do a deep dive.

We'll share some resources that were helpful for us too. Definitely let us know what you think. If you like the one on one style, we're going to start doing a lot more of this. And again, just appreciate all you guys. And we'll talk very soon. Appreciate you. Love it, brother.