The Meat Mafia Podcast

Part 1 Audio
===

[00:00:00] Let's make some magic happen! You guys asked, we delivered. You know you saw me on their show before, the Meat Mafia. The only guys with the word Mafia in it that's totally acceptable somehow. But you guys are the brilliant co hosts and hosts. Host, co host, host of the Meat Mafia podcast.

Brett and Harry, welcome to the show guys! Thank you so much for having us. It's so weird being in your studio saying welcome to my show in this chair. We're going to ask you some questions. Okay. Is that what that's going to be? A part two interview with you. No, you don't want that. I'll talk too much again.

Nobody needs that in their life. I mean, it was such an amazing conversation and we were saying this before we hit record. There are certain people that you meet in the space where you feel like you've known them for longer than you've actually met them before. And I felt like that was the three of us too.

That's why we're so grateful to Ari who connected us. We had such a good episode with you. We dove into topics that. We've never asked before you talked about things that I think you publicly haven't talked about and that's the beauty of a podcast is There's just like amazing serendipity where you just let the conversation take you where it's supposed to take you [00:01:00] Well, thanks, man.

It was it was really great for the opportunity. Ari has been an amazing guy I when I did drinking bros when I was here I had to give him like the the drinking bro beer of the day because The guy needs some recognition in his life so So I wanted to have you both on the show and i'm really grateful We got to have the studio and do it in person because I don't often get to do these in person Hopefully more soon, but ultimately I wanted to talk to both of you because you are very different ducks in this space and I think in the best way possible you stand out to me because you are radically different than other shows.

You are not talking necessarily about, you know, libs of TikTok clips on your social media. You guys are talking about some serious things, ways that change people's health and look at diet. The way that you guys live your lives is really interesting and I don't know that. I think you've been interviewed by a few shows, but I don't know how deep they got.

So we're gonna, we're gonna go a little harder in the paint today. So, uh, let's just, let's just, let's get [00:02:00] into it. How, how did you, you guys become stepbrothers? You want me to take it? I love, I love baseball together in college. Right. Um, that was sort of the start of it. So I was a year older than Brett stopped playing after two years and then Brett transferred in.

My junior year and I was studying abroad at the time didn't really overlap much. So we got reconnected or we got connected my senior year when I wasn't even really on the team. He was hurt and we started lifting together. That was like the, the origin story is like, he was just looking for somebody to lift with as he was recovering from a knee injury.

And, um, I remember going to get sushi with them and just getting to know him better. And it was like, all right, like this is, this could be one of my guys. And then we, I graduated, stayed in Boston. He went to New York after he graduated and we kind of drifted apart just like, you know, not, not really having established roots with a friendship.

And then we got reconnected through my really good friend and his really [00:03:00] good friend. And, um, it was just like very clear. We were on similar paths, both kind of exploring what it would be like to be in an entrepreneurial. Position like we both wanted to take bigger risks and really felt like we had left some meat on the bone.

No pun intended

But like with our baseball careers, I think we both had this feeling that we wanted to do more And we just, we didn't capitalize on those opportunities that we had. So when we graduated, both of us wanted to do something big and gotten to roles that we were able to see what the real world was like, and just knew that there was a path out there for our own, if, if we were willing to take the risks.

So we ultimately ended up signing up for an Ironman together. And, um, this was during COVID and. We'd signed up for a half Ironman before and some Through you know, some of brett's health issues, which i'm sure he'll talk about in a sec But um, he didn't end up doing the race I did it and then we did a full distance ironman together down here in waco And lived together for a month beforehand and we're just [00:04:00] like, all right, like this is my guy We're on the same page.

Like it's very rare to find those people that you want to actually Start to do bigger things in life with and it was clear that we both were like ready to take that step I just quit my job and brett was Like, ready to make the move. So we started writing a bit online, and I think the rest is basically history.

Started the podcast, and then started Noble, which is our, our, uh, company that we have together. Yeah. Baseball, eh? Baseball. Baseball guys. Do you guys come from sports family backgrounds? My dad played baseball in college. Okay, so that's why baseball was always the sport that I was pushed into and I loved it Too and my dad's one of my best friends as well.

So yeah, he played at a really high level My uncle played college baseball my cousin. Yeah, I have a like pretty athletic background family wise So when you're saying college you guys talking about and bear with me I'm canadian d1 like that kind of level stuff like d like Yeah, so obviously division one is like the highest level collegially.

Then there's division two, division three. Okay, um, where Harry [00:05:00] and I overlapped was at Babson, which is a division three school. Okay. Um, so not as competitive as a division one school, but it's a really good business program, entrepreneurship in particular, which is really interesting because, um, Arthur Blank, who founded Home Depot, went to Babson, so he's, he's, yeah, so he's dumped like hundreds of millions of dollars into that school, but what's so interesting is that even though everyone has like an entrepreneurial focus, still like 99 percent of the people that you graduate with just go on to work corporate jobs, right?

And so I think for both of us, the commonality is like we both wanted our own thing, right? We just didn't know what that was until we really became friends and just kind of leaned into the unique passions that we had and that was how Mafia was built. So it's like very much about fixing the food system, but it's also kind of an extension of our friendship too, which is really cool, which is the most adorable thing I've ever seen.

I've never seen like I'm around a lot of different people, but when you when you see two people that it's true, I've seen you and I've heard you do it. You don't have to look at each other. You both do. Think the [00:06:00] same way. You both have similar value sets. You both have integrity and what you believe in.

And I think We would have this conversation right before you I think you were trying to get keys, but we were talking really briefly about You know things line up When, when you have a similar belief system, integrity for the things that you believe in, and to the extent in which you do, it's so much easier to get along with people.

You can just, it feels like you've known them a lot longer, and there's maybe a different level of vulnerability and openness that you wouldn't necessarily get if you know somebody was this big belief system, and there's nothing wrong with that. People can be different, but to see how you two meld, It really does feel like it was meant to happen, which is interesting because going from a sports background into this entrepreneurial journey.

It must be, it must be nice to have each other walk this path together. Yeah, I think to your point, Kelsey, it's like partnerships in general are such a level up when you do it right, whether it's business, friendship, romantic, et cetera. It's like when you pick that right [00:07:00] person, they will fundamentally help you elevate to a level that you never could get to on your own.

So I don't think that this would have existed without Harry. And I think vice versa, because I think we both gave each other that push that we needed. We're like, I can tend to be over analytical about certain things and Harry's more so like no, let's just build it. Let's do it We'll figure it out later.

And that's really what I needed as well, too. So like He created the Twitter account first. I started writing Twitter threads because Harry was writing Twitter threads He was the one that said hey, let's start a podcast like he had a lot of those ideas And that's what I think a great partner does is they push you to another level that you normally would wouldn't be able to get To on your own right and that's that visionary versus execution You need to have both and I think that's where a lot of people fall off or if you're doing something there I'm doing where I'm alone.

It's like you have to play both sides And that's what's really, the dynamic between you two is fascinating. I've seen how you podcast. I've listened to a ton of your content. And if people are just listening going, who are the meat mafia? They're the guys, remember the cry clip? That one. Those are the guys.[00:08:00]

But I bring it up because I think people right now in the world feel like they have to go things alone. I don't know if they're afraid of showing another side to somebody else or if they're not going to be enough in that relationship or they think they're worthy or have, um, enough self worth, self love to say like, I'm good enough to be partnered with someone in this.

Like, I believe that I can be an asset rather than a liability. But you mentioned your health issues. So I want to talk about that. What's going on? Yeah, I think um, the interesting thing about us is that we have this brand in the nutrition space But neither of us are quote unquote experts, right? It's like we're not we don't have degrees in nutrition.

We're not mds. We're not chiropractors We're just Two average guys that kind of put in the 10, 000 hours of trial and error to really figure out What combinations of food and diet and lifestyle inputs really help us feel our best? And I think we just have this fundamental belief that as humans like [00:09:00] our potential is unlimited.

If you know how to nourish your body with the right inputs, right. And we both know what it feels like to feel really shitty and also feel really good. Cause you, you need that comparison of both of those extremes. And, um, I would say feeling really shitty pun intended was honestly how I felt. Um, so yeah, that was unintentional, but, um, my health experience was really, I justified everything that I was doing under the lens of, uh, I'm a high level collegiate athlete.

Therefore I must be healthy because I can lift weights. I'm playing sports at a high level. I was just kind of following that calories in calories out methodology. So, you know, it's so interesting college too, right? It's like you pay 80, 000 a year. You go into all this debt. You learn shit that you could probably just learn through youtube.

You're chronically stressed out Drinking alcohol having sex with people. It's just like it's just not the ideal human experience And I think I kind of fell into that camp. So My senior year I started having a ton of issues going to the bathroom I was literally going to the bathroom like [00:10:00] 30 times a day when I was at my sickest Ton of blood in my stool, ton of inflammation in my stomach, got hospitalized, and I got diagnosed with, uh, ulcerative colitis, which is an autoimmune disease.

And if you look at, if you just Google autoimmune diseases in the U. S., over the last 50 years, you see this crazy skyrocketing of diseases. Which never really existed and I, we believe that that's from the wrong diet and lifestyle inputs as part of being modern Americans. But, um, so I get diagnosed with ulcerative colitis.

It's basically extreme inflammation in your large intestine, which is your colon. It's commonly confused with Crohn's. Crohn's is small intestine, colitis is large intestine, but they're basically the same thing. They just affect slightly different areas. And so with any of these autoimmune diseases, they tell you that these things are incurable.

So the best that you could hope for is to go into remission. The doctors were immediately talking to you about putting you on all this expensive medication and drugs and steroids And that was exactly the camp that I fell into my doctor amazing dude, but [00:11:00] very conventional western gastroenterologist So he said look, I don't think I think that this was genetic no matter what you did.

You were going to get this disease Um, they immediately put me on a drug called remicade which is a biologic drug It costs 400, 000 a year just for me to get the medication. So you can do the math on how much these diseases are causing the medical system, let alone all the other hosts of chronic diseases that exist in the U.

S. And I kind of just went on my way. I was like, okay, well, not diet and lifestyle related. I'm on these drugs and meds. I'm just going to have to do this for the rest of my life. And that's going to be that. And then everything changed for me when I was 24 years old, it was 2019. Carnivore diet started to become a little bit more popular, not definitely not mainstream to the levels that it is now, but I listened to Dr.

Sean Baker go on Joe Rogan's podcast. He started talking about the carnivore diet, saying that eating animal products are, animal products are wrongly demonized. They're the most nutrient dense foods and they're also super bioavailable, which means that your body can properly digest [00:12:00] and really absorb and utilize a lot of those micronutrients that are in animal foods.

And he was saying that he was, he had seen hundreds, if not thousands of patients that had similar autoimmune diseases that were curing things that were supposed to be incurable. Yeah, all of these autoimmune, it seems like anybody that's on a carnivore diet, once they have that, it just, the symptoms just absolutely bottom out.

Yes, like someone like Michaela Peterson, right? Double ankle replacement, told she's going to be dead, follows this lion diet, so like salt, red meat, water. Essentially cures herself, right? Yeah, she talked about it on the show a little bit It got flagged on YouTube because of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah when I had her on Yeah, so there's this amazing like there's this amazing alternative health movement of people that are saying We're fatter and sicker than we've ever been before right?

They're telling us to eat less meat. I don't think that makes sense What if I take my health into my own hands and become the CEO of my own health? Try this alternative wacky diet and see what happens and they get drastically healthier, right? Right, and so that was me So literally loaded up on steak ground beef chicken thighs fish [00:13:00] eggs water coffee And I just like relentlessly experimented with this thing I I don't know why but I just had I think because sean baker was talking about all these other patients that healed Right that gave me my own proof of concept of right if they can do it Why can't I do it and I don't want to be dependent on this drug for the rest of my life So I did that diet Extremely consistently for about two years and literally within the first week.

I felt like a different person like it It doesn't take the thing is when people start making these extreme Um when they take their health into their own hands, it doesn't take that long, right? Some people it does but for a lot of people within a few days, they'll notice positive symptoms Do you think that the reason it doesn't is because people aren't hyper consistent?

I think that's probably part. I think that's partially it. Some people are just so sick to that. It just takes that constant iteration over years. But I think for me going from processed foods, binge drinking, stress to I'm going to cook all my meals. I'm going to give my body the right nutrients it needs.

It was [00:14:00] like craving those things so strongly that as soon as it got ahead of those things, it responded incredibly well. So. Literally like stomach got drastically better I went from going to the bathroom like five times a day down to like one to two Which is life changing for for someone like me because when you have ibs your whole life is revolving around Where is the closest bathroom because i'm gonna literally shit myself, right?

Which is super embarrassing for guys to talk about but no, I think I think yeah It's it's way more common than people want to admit and it happens Really frequently. A hundred percent. I can't tell you how many people I know that have shit their pants this year. Yeah. It's March. Yeah. Well, I think what's interesting is I think a lot of people have undiagnosed IBS and IBD and we just accept these.

Things that shouldn't be accepted at all. Why do you think we're doing that? I think when 65 percent of all calories consumed in the US are coming in the form of ultra processed foods And we've kind of accepted such a low metabolic baseline. We don't even know what real food is We [00:15:00] don't even know what it feels like to actually feel good, right?

Like I accepted this super low because I didn't know what it to have that contrast point of what does it mean to feel? really good So I think so many Americans are in this metabolic rut that until we actually allow them to eat real foods and they can see this other path that's possible. They don't even, they don't understand the potential and what they're missing out on.

So it sounds like you guys are really tackling something. You're taking on a much larger animal, which to me is not the food industry. It's the government and the pushing on the media outlets of having cereal for dinner. You know, just from the, you know, a multi, almost billionaire saying, You guys should just have cereal for dinner.

That is I don't know if you saw that was the Kellogg CEO or the individual, one of the guys that owns one of the major cereal companies went on and said, you know, you guys should just have cereal for dinner then. I mean, we know there's poison in it. We understand the dyes in the food are causing a lot of these neurological disorders that children are then put on a massive amount of pharmaceutical intervention for.

Furthermore, if you didn't get healthy, think about over your lifetime how much money you would be worth to a pharmaceutical [00:16:00] company. Totally. Literally millions of dollars. Oh, but banana levels. I'm a great customer. You're a fantastic customer. But that's interesting to me too. You're both athletes. You had the stereotypical college experience where you drink and, you know, all of the stuff.

But I just, really? Because you seem like you come from some families that are, you know, were, was diet an issue in your families? Was, was, is health an issue in your families growing up? Was this maybe a learned behavior like most people have? Like we don't know better till we know better kind of situation?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think we both had very conscious moms growing up. Yep. I would attribute it to our mothers. I don't know if you feel the same way, but like, just like skeptical and aware of what's going on in the world and wanting to do what's best for their kids. Like I'm one of four, so my mom was like always cranking out food and like she did her best and I think she was following mostly like the government guidelines on like what to put on the table.

So it was like skim milk. Yep. And um, you know, we like high protein diet, but I look back and like she was definitely the one who was like Food [00:17:00] is really important. You need to like right fuel fuel yourselves with the right things And even if she was making some choices that looking back now i'm like mommy shouldn't have been doing skim milk Come on, let's go.

Yeah, but you know like it's it's part of the whole conversation which is like this is information That's being pushed out there by like special interest groups or corporate interests that eventually leak into government, which I think a lot of people think that those two things are very separated.

But as soon as you have money to start to put behind creating influence and driving an agenda, it's very easy to capture people who are in power and who have significant amounts of sway when it comes to creating legislation around what you should be eating, what you shouldn't be eating. Right. Um, The US government put their guidelines out and that was the first time ever a government had recommended what people should and shouldn't eat.

That's terrifying when you think about it. I mean at the time nobody realized it was a red flag But the government telling you what to eat right off the [00:18:00] bat My opinion should have been one of the biggest red flags. Yeah, because they have no business My opinion look at our health ministers You tell me have you been able to point out since you know, covid Any healthy In shape, well put together health ministers, because I haven't seen one that's not morbidly obese.

Oh no, I'm not even, I'm not even being trying to be disrespectful. I'm being very genuine. If you look around at the health ministers and the individuals that are working in conjunction with these food companies to make the restrictions or the, restrictions, the guidelines, if you will, as to what Americans and Canadians and others should be eating, these are highly unhealthy individuals.

Yes. You would think that From my perspective, objectively looking at who's making some of the decisions around health, that they were actively trying to make you distrust what they're saying. Like, the people who are telling you how to be healthy are, like, the lady who's in charge, or man who's in charge of the health [00:19:00] decisions in the US, the health minister, is, like, Out of shape, does not look healthy, and, you know, I don't know, like, how are you supposed to trust someone who's not really able to follow that guidance, like, for themselves?

That's my first red flag. It's like doctors as well. You walk into the ER, and, I'm sorry, but if you're a doctor that's overweight and unhealthy looking, and I understand, I understand that profession has 18, 20 hour days, and they're long stretches, and I get it, and you can't always be the healthiest, but then Riddle me this Batman.

Why are all the other doctors that I know super healthy six packs? They have families. They have multiple children. They're surgeons and they make time to go run and work out Why can they do it, but you can't do it a hundred percent? Yeah, I put out a tweet Maybe like a year ago, I think I said, I'm never going to take health advice from a non Jack doctor before, right.

And it took a lot of it took a lot of heat. But I think common sense just we've kind of we don't have common sense when it comes to nutrition anymore. [00:20:00] And it's like you can, you can quote me every PhD scientific study that's telling you that red meat is terrible for you. But if you can't even manage your own body weight, why am I going to listen to you about that?

Because you really don't understand what you're studying? Right? Right. And that's what I mean. It's not to throw shade at these professions, it's to look objectively at who is making the decisions for our children, and who is manipulating, cause that's what it feels like, this mass manipulation. I'll give you an example.

Before I came on your guys show, um, which you guys should definitely go watch, we, I started trolling people on Instagram, in a nice way, but over, over protein. And people thought it was funny. But what I found out really quickly was how many people didn't know. about the nutrition facts of, say, eggs and bacon or turkey bacon or, uh, steak.

They would say, well, why would you eat more of that? You're killing more animals and it's really bad for the environment and it's not good for your health. When we know that protein is one of the best, best things for [00:21:00] your body. So it's, it does feel like There is this excuse that we're uneducated, that we don't know enough, we don't have the data, but yet we have one of these in our hands every five seconds, so Is it an excuse or are people just being lazy at this point?

I think there's a tremendous amount of gaslighting to draw people away from their gut intuition around What they think should be true and what's not and it makes it makes people doubt themselves and doubt kind of like You know if they're making the right choices and like if you're eating food and it's making you fat you should Probably understand that Like the relationship with your food is the problem and the information you're getting is probably not right So I think like the camps where we both come from is like we experimented with food We understand this like unique relationship that we have with food and it does drive a lot of the health outcomes That you end up having in your life and so like for most people I just think that they're getting told things and there's a lot of Deception.

One of the things that [00:22:00] we talk about with food is just the distance that's been created through, you know, the source of the food where it's coming from and the end consumer has created a lot of space for deception to get, you know, put out there, whether it's through companies or through government, there's just plenty of room for people to label things and say things that aren't necessarily true.

And unless you actually like go do the work for yourself and try to figure out what works and what doesn't, you're really not going to be able to trust. Like the intuition that you might have. Yeah, I think the the goal is the mindset should be like you should become your own peer reviewed study, right?

So for me, it's like When I took my own health into my own hands It's like try telling me that red meat is bad for me when I was literally shitting 30 times a day I started following this diet. Now i'm healthy. I'm off of all my drugs I'm, the only patient in my doctor's history that's ever gotten off of these drugs before so it's like Try telling me that red meat is bad for me when I did this so consistently And it actually worked for me too And also just have the common sense to think about the fact [00:23:00] that If the government is telling you to eat eight to eleven servings of whole grains a day You And 70 percent of the population is overweight or obese yet.

We've thrived on meat for 2. 5 million years How is it? How is meat now killing us over the last 50 years? It doesn't it doesn't add up. It doesn't Equate it doesn't compute to me. Well, it's not just meat either, right? We've become devoid of this I I had this conversation recently with someone else and it was very similar it You know, we're really devoid of the Actually, it was a Laura Longley from The Boneyard, and we were talking about children need to be outside.

They need to be dirty. They need to be wet. She has a tiny little human right now, and I said, like, What do you How are you going to raise this child? She was very similar to the way I was raised, where, Go outside, I'll see you later. And then, I think that's so important, and that comes back to, you know, Yes, our diets are garbage.

We know that. Human garbage. But it's so much more than that. We've become devoid of this connection to so many things. Our families, the Earth, God, name it. We're completely on [00:24:00] this other stage where we act as if we don't need each other. Like, we don't need human connection, we can eat food from a box, and we can watch TV all day, and we can never go outside, and then we wonder why our populations are drastically sicker every year that goes by.

And then you have people like the Canadian government who are actively, and are, there's a new story that came out today, I'm still trying to digest it. They are actually targeting and killing people at a rate that is, we're surpassing every record possible. People are depressed, people are on more medication than ever, and yet we are removing everything that we need to be what it means to be a human being on the face of this earth for the past thousands of years.

So, I've thought a lot about what I wanted to talk to you guys about and, you know, there's literally a million things, um, on both of you separately together as one. But, what really struck me, last time I was here, you know, we got talking in the gym [00:25:00] and we were having this conversation and it blew my mind because I was surprised how deep you went with me like that quick and I was like, oh.

Like five minutes in. Yeah. We were like a sip of espresso. You were like, oh, oh, okay, let's talk about it. Let's talk about God. Let's talk about God. Let's talk about your guys faith. Let's talk about what God means to you, what God is to you, and how God has helped you both. What I would argue became, to become the people that you are now.

Mm hmm. So whoever wants to go first, you are welcome. Yeah, I, I'm trying to think where to start this. I mean, I, so I grew up in a family I was telling you, have three siblings. Um, we went to church. It was something that, I don't know if my parents had like the relationship that I do now with God, but I I think they tried to teach us the importance of having God in our life and like spirituality, but it definitely to me felt like I didn't really understand the nature of like who God is and what it means to follow Christ.

And so Like I [00:26:00] graduated from high school, went to college, did, did the whole thing was drinking, partying, drugs, um, you know, having, having premarital sex, like basically the things that fall outside of the scope of what someone who's following Jesus would do. Right. Right. So, um, it took me a while to like figure it out, but six years, um, after graduating came down here and got introduced to a triathlon coach who's had a huge impact on Brett and mine's life.

And she just took us up after one track workout. She was like, let's go grab smoothies. Just want to talk to you guys, get to know you guys better. And she gave us a nudge after me having spent like this period of my life, not having any faith and not really like identifying as a Christian. She was like, Hey, like, do you guys, are you guys faith based?

Like, what's your like spiritual stance? Like, where do you guys stand? And it was, I think both of us probably had similar reactions where it was like, Yeah, like [00:27:00] kind of, but like, you know, I hadn't been to church in like a bunch of years and it was totally like not a part of, it wasn't a part of me at all.

And so, um, you know, I think that looking back, that was just definitely a turning point moment. Um, I had recently quit my job, was making some big life changes, had just gotten out of a longer term relationship. And there was definitely looking back like these moments where it was like taking more risk, allowed space for.

Like this idea that like maybe I needed to grow a lot more spiritually as a person And so I was like, yeah, I'd be interested in going to church like sure. So I end up going to her church and See the pastor there meet the pastor there turns out he was a guy who showed up religiously to her run group And so I got to run with him meet him more and it was really just a different perspective on Not even religion.

I don't, don't even really want to use religion, but just a different perspective on what it means to be a Christian and what it means to have a spiritual [00:28:00] background or like spirituality in your life. And, um, It just struck me like I just need to like keep showing up to this I don't know why but like I'm just gonna keep going to church on Sundays and just It just feels like this is the place where I need to be and having gone from the corporate background to entrepreneurship There's a lot less structure.

So like maybe this is something that can create some structure in my life that will You know for better or worse or you know, however, it ends up like it'll have a positive impact on me, right and um Just showing up there and building a relationship with a pastor Who's you know, it's only a hundred people at the church that I go to that we go to um, just developing a relationship with a guy who really has had an incredible journey of his own was a Drug addict for from like 12 to 20 Got clean now has an amazing family three kids and someone who has true spiritual power like His presence and how he navigates his life, there's so much strength because his identity is rooted in Christ.

And there's something that, you know, I don't think I would have been able to [00:29:00] listen to what I just said like five years ago and be like, like, what is what is he talking about? Like, but at this point my life I'm like, this guy. Is able to navigate life for better or worse the hard times when his church during kovid basically came down to like two or three people and Got through that continue to get pour into his kids continue to pour into his community continue to just be a stand up person And you're like what's driving that what's driving that person to to that level of of commitment to what he's doing And so I think just the relationship that I built with with him Was something that Actually made me realize there's big pieces of my life that are missing and that I need to like address that so Yeah, he's been Scott is his name the pastor.

He's just been a huge influence in both of our lives and the way that he's been able to pour into us. We started going to this small group and understanding what it means to not just like go to church on Sunday and call yourself a Christian, but actually like get [00:30:00] into a group with a bunch of other people who are trying to figure things out in life, talk about hard things, talk about relationships, money, um, you know, all of it through the lens of God and through the lens of Christianity and like dig deep on those things.

And that space was like, well, It just, like, God spoke to me in those moments where it's like, this is, like, how you need to reshape your identity and how you need to, like, actually start living your life. So, from there, got rebaptized, um, and just slowly have started to just try to continue to learn more about what it means to be a man of God.

And I think, like, right now, it's, it's the, the anchor of, like, everything that we're doing. It's the thing that we fall back on when we have those tough days. It's just the basis of our weeks, and I don't think we would be where we are without the presence of that in our life. It sounds like, before we get to you, if you don't mind, um, it sounds like, and maybe this is just an outside perspective, so bear with me, [00:31:00] it sounds like what you were missing was a community.

Definitely. Definitely partially community, because I would say like my job, when I would show up to it previously, it was like, I'm like, this is kind of like job hairy, and then there's like a hairy outside of my job. And then. Yeah, like I think as an athlete, when you lose community and you lose your team, you definitely go through a bit of an identity crisis.

Um, but I definitely, I agree with you and also think there's like a layer deeper to it where it's like community and then how do you show up in that community to provide value to that community and what, what kind of like standards are we setting for ourselves in this community? And it was just empowering to realize that there's something like that.

Like I had never experienced what I experienced through joining this community and being a part of it. Um, and there was just a certain level of like, there's these people from all walks of life, which was a different aspect of religion that I grew up in because it was. When I was younger, it was a very homogenous crew, very much standard socioeconomic and [00:32:00] standard looking types of people.

And so, when I show up to this church, it's diverse and has all sorts of walks of life who are showing up to it, and we're all kind of there for the same reason. And we're all believing the same set of beliefs, and there's really something empowering to that, I think, because you get to share Perspectives from all across different, you know, different places, different experiences and we're all talking about the same thing, which is like, how do we grow in our relationship with Christ?

Right, and it seems like as you, as you become deeper in that, it's, it's not only filled this void, if you will, for you, but it seems like it's, it's given you a, a solid base. To hold yourself accountable, to show up for others, to be this other, not this other, but this better person and maybe lean more authentically into who you are rather than having a separate this guy here and then this guy here, it's like, you're all one, you just needed to find a way for it to meld, it seems like.

Yeah, a sense of identity. Right. Um. Yeah, [00:33:00] there's, I, I think we, you know, a lot of times it's, it's easy to drift away, like you could be a good hearted person, but if you don't have that set of values that is like, I am going to follow, like, just these principles and I can study these principles and actually become better and grow in a relationship with what these principles actually mean and how I can apply them to, you know, My finances, my relationships in business, my relationships outside of business, like all these things are in isolation, very different, but when you can weave it all together and actually make it like very one and very integrated, I think that's what I felt like I was missing where it's like, how do I just like show up as the same person in across all areas of my life and fully be able to fill up all the different cups that I'm trying to fill up?

Right? Yeah. And with God you've been able to, you've found that, you feel like you're really in a good place with that. Found it and I'm constantly working on what it, what it really means. Like there's, just, it's an onion. Right. I think the [00:34:00] more people that I've invited into this, like, community that we have and the more times I spend talking about it, like we host a men's group every Tuesday.

Oh, that's amazing. Sorry. That's awesome. Yeah. We've had some, just incredible conversations about life. And I think, like, without It being centered like, you know, men's groups are great like no matter what setting but when the setting is like, how can we all just improve ourselves in the same context I think gyms do a good job of like Kind of being something a parallel to that but just this this idea that hey We're just gonna like go for a run come back sit down talk about what everyone's going through and then we have like some topics that we're like dive into but um, yeah, there's there's just a lot when you are Actually hearing other people talk about their experience as well.

Like, you come to realizations that maybe you hadn't fully experienced and, and, or fully understood just through somebody else's context of what they're going [00:35:00] through. Well, if you're, if you're open, right, and you're willing to be vulnerable, you're not only going to see where other people are coming from, but you're also going to realize that you're not alone.

Yeah, definitely. And you've never been alone in it. Yeah, like this morning, um, one of our buddies, I hope this isn't an overshare, but like, No, it's not. He was just like, Yeah, I'm thinking about quitting my job and doing this whole entrepreneurship thing. And basically, like, three to five other dudes in the group are all doing their own thing entrepreneurs.

He's like, I just I'm like, really struggling with this decision. Like, what did you guys do? Next 45 minutes was just talking him through like, that feeling of getting up against the edge of the cliff and taking that risk and not understanding that, you know, You can only see the first, the first step, and then the full staircase isn't fully illuminated yet.

But, just giving him, being able to provide context for him, like, what he should be thinking about, how he might be feeling. And just things that worked for us were, it was just like this amazing conversation that we ended up having, having for the next like hour or [00:36:00] so. But that's beautiful because you guys, you know, I use this analogy that we all are walking through the dark together, but somebody has to be the bright light.

And when you get to the end you have a, I believe personally, an obligation to turn around and walk backwards to light it up for others. And that's what you, you just did right there. You know, that right there in itself, if you didn't have a place. To put that energy, to talk these things through, he might have just stayed in this job that maybe doesn't make him happy, doesn't fulfill his soul, doesn't give him what he needs, but because you, you basically held the container for him, you gave him the space, and that's what you two do so well, and I told you that before, it's, it's, it's unmatched, you guys show up in a very different way, and maybe that's, maybe that's where that comes from, is that base with God, I mean, you, like I said, you and I had that chat, we all had that chat last time I was here, and, you know, You were talking about non denominational churches, because I told you my background around religion and all of that, and I was grateful to hear you say spirituality, too, because for me it feels like right now there's this [00:37:00] weird, strange division line happening where I've heard people say, well, spirituality isn't Uh, connection to God, and God is completely separate from that and devoid of that.

And I, I couldn't agree, I could not disagree more with that statement. I think spirituality and religion, I think they're the same things. I think a lot of times we just get stuck in these boxes. We keep putting each other in these boxes, and I think, I, I like the term spirituality better than religion because it allows a fluidity.

It allows an acceptance of other things. what sets your soul on fire and connects with your soul and your spirit, right? Because that's what it is. We're all spirits. We're all souls. What you believe, maybe the same thing I believe, but maybe the way you say it isn't, doesn't hit with me, right? It's like how some pastors really resonate with certain people and some bore you to sleep and, you know, it's, it has to resonate.

It has to hit. And I think we're ultimately all speaking the same language, but because I burn [00:38:00] sage. I've had people who are very religious tell me I'm a witch, but I'm like, but I'm sitting and talking to God, like, what do you, what words are you saying? I also just work with energy. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So it's just very different.

Yeah, they're the, these people that create these very, um, black and white lines and they don't allow for any, like, co mingling or mixing or anything, and I think it's ultimately about, like, Finding what combination makes you feel the best that allows you to be the best version of yourself in just applying that combination in your own life, too.

Which is why I think finding the right church or whatever that vehicle is for you to find God, um, is the most important thing. Like Harry was mentioning that he was raised Episcopalian. I was raised Catholic. Denominational churches, they put like the wrong taste of God in Christ into a lot of people's mouths, which is what we talked about when we first met because like denominational church is very much based on Rule and ritual and it's not focused on relationship with christ So like [00:39:00] you're going to church your parents are forcing you to be there.

You're bowing. You're standing you're kneeling You're praying you're getting communion. You're going home. You don't really understand why you're there Right when I think a really good non denominational church is just focusing purely on Your individual relationship with God and the forgiveness of sin, which is like, we're humans.

We're all sinners. We're never going to be perfect. We're going to continue to fuck up and make mistakes. But the concept with non denominational Christianity is that Jesus ultimately died for those sins, too. And it's accepting the fact that you're going to continue to sin, but you're going to learn from it and just be the best person that you can be to serve the world as best as you possibly can, too.

And sin is a dark word. And, and, and so I always wonder about that. You know, I talked to Candace about this on the show the other day, and we were talking about, you know, like, uh, I think she stated, like, you know, when the Bible, it's like, every child is born of sin. Like, with sin. And I was like, I disagree with that a whole lot.

Do you think sin is, um, like, embedded into you by the world? Yes, I don't think [00:40:00] you're born. I think, I think when, I think when, I mean, I've, I've, I've pushed a human out of my body, and I have to tell you, there's nothing. There's nothing but light and purity and, and innocence and the divine when that child comes out of you and you, and you, you leave, you feel it leave, so I, I had a vaginal birth and so when you feel the baby leave your body, there's nothing more pure and, and the idea of sin, and I'm like, I think, I think objectively humans, everyone does have sins, but I think that's Kind of the, the world does that to them.

I think it comes to them. I don't think, I don't think they're, I don't think children are born with it. I think it's what happens in the world, and I think that I don't love telling kids that they're born with sin. Because then you're automatically setting a negative onto their mindset because they, children can't fully understand that.

I don't, I truly don't believe because again, I'm a big believer in You know, the brain [00:41:00] stops growing at a certain point, and up until that point, you're always changing and moving, and I don't know that children could grasp at that age. And I feel like if I told a child that, you know, you're born with sin, they're thinking, what's wrong with me?

What did I do wrong? When you did nothing wrong, baby. Right? And so, that's a weird one for me. There's a few other things that are definitely weird for me. But that one I always push back on. Because If you've witnessed a child come into this earth, there's, there's no sin involved in that. Right. There, there just can't be.

Yeah. But I understand from a, I understand like the, um, I understand what they're trying to say, that no human is devoid of sin. Yeah. But I just think that comes over time. Yeah, maybe they, I, I wish I had a better interpretation. Maybe they just mean too that like, maybe you're born pure, but like, no matter what happens, like sin, you know, like by, because of being in society, like, you will sin.

Ultimately some maybe maybe something like that that hits a little more that makes a little more sense to me again I'm, not i'm not somebody [00:42:00] that studies the bible so I can't you know, break that down more but that would be my Interpretation, but I think saying that children all child is born of sin.

I'm like, oh, no, that's no it's not. Yeah Until they poop all over you. Yes Conversation but for you god's been I mean, I I see it. I see when you both speak it is very different It is not uh, yeah, I believe in god in passing It's really in your soul. Yeah. It's like when you have that, I think everyone has some type of a breakthrough moment at church.

I think a lot of times it's maybe even during worship music as well when the band is playing and it's super powerful music and you can really feel God's presence over you. It's like, once you have that like warmth and that presence and you know that God is with you. It's like impossible to. Act as if he's not there because you know that he's ultimately there and My faith in god allows me to have faith in my business ventures and my romantic relationships and everything that harry was just talking about it's like When you have that faith that allows you to have faith in [00:43:00] other aspects of your life And that's what we should lean in on more and that's why I would encourage anyone to just find some type of a Spiritual discipline, right?

It's like we do all have a god whether we realize it or not It's like you say you're an atheist But you're watching NFL Red Zone every single Sunday. So you do have a God whether you realize it or not, right? Um, and I think for both of us, when we were early in the journey, when we started going to the church that we went to, we said, regardless of what we believe, all these people that are here are people that we genuinely look up to.

Right. And they're happy. And for me, it was like, if I'm, when I was first on this journey, I'm like, if I'm so smart, why am I not happy? So like, maybe these people that have this great spiritual practice and this relationship with God, maybe they actually know something that I don't. So I'm just going to be open minded and I'm going to go and I'm going to show up and I'm going to learn as much as I possibly can.

And then make a decision and then I think for both of us, it was like, our lives are way better off. Having accepted God and Christ in our lives and that's it's up to you to make that determination, [00:44:00] right? I think that's really I think that's really beautiful. I'm a big believer in waiting Until children are older to make that decision.

Because I've seen what happens when we just automatically roll it through the family. There's no connection. And that's like, you know, a small tangent. That's what the conversation was before, right? It was like, you're like, do you believe in God? I'm like, yes and no. But yes, ultimately. And when I say the word God, I'm, this is uh, It's like a, like a test you can do with people, right?

It's, uh, there's a name for it, but essentially it's like your body will respond negatively or positively towards things. I know there's a name, but why can't I think of it? Anyway, um, So, God, for me, when I used to hear that word as a child, ugh. Yeah. Right? And, it just meant, you know, this, this guy that hated me because I wanted tattoos and piercings, and this, this God that hated me because I was seeing things with my eyes that other people weren't seeing.

Like, I used to have this little girl in my like, long story, we'll get into it sometime. Um, but there's this, I was told, I'm [00:45:00] bad because these are the things I, I want. Or, I'm bad because I'm not doing the You know, the Bible says, and it, I remember in my religion class, because Catholic school, we, the whole semester was built around, you had to read the Bible, and you had to pick 18 verses, and you had to break them down, about what you thought about them.

And I remember at the time, I so badly wanted my belly button pierced. And my parents were like, hell no. And like, for context, my father's not, he was not religious, not Catholic, but my mom was, so they were married in a church. Um, and my mom said to me, if God wanted you to have it, You would have it. I was like, okay, I'm gonna find some stuff and I sure I found some stuff in that Bible And it was like I can't remember the verse, but I remember it so vividly and I can't believe I still remember this There was a this girl that was sent down from the sky and she had holes in her body and like painting and drawing like basically drawings on her and all these things I remember going to my mother and being like Holes in body.

Yeah. Holes all over her body, [00:46:00] and it wasn't like, it was like piercings. That's what they, and so it was this whole kind of conversation, and, and then it was justified, and then it was okay, and then I could get it done, and everything was fine. But there was this moment in my life where the word God Really just represented the church and not the good version of the church, like the really nasty version.

And I, I asked this to Candace the other day, I'd be curious to know your guys thoughts, and I feel like I know where it's gonna go, but I'm curious. You know, from a, from the Catholic church perspective, that's what I was raised in, I'm really good at forgiving. But oh, they make it hard. So how have you both been able to, Over, I don't want to say overlook, because I don't think anybody's overlooking it, but nothing's changing and nothing's being done about it.

So, I guess we're overlooking it. How have you guys been able to see some of the things that the church has done and represented and move forward with that? [00:47:00] And not just be like, Yeah, I think there's a there's we actually talked about this this morning in the book that we're reading. Okay, and the subheader of the the chapter was the point, like the poisons of religion.

And even Jesus himself, the reason that he got persecuted was because he healed on the Sabbath, the day that you're supposed to not be working. And he got persecuted. By the religious leaders, so I think there's a just a distinction that needs to be made for people who are maybe on the other side of the fence looking in being like I just don't relate with this whole god thing or I don't relate with christianity It's not about like The church like even Jesus throughout the bible talks about the religious leaders who are creating a lot of the problems by Setting this legalistic standard of what it means to know him and know god um, so I just [00:48:00] think the distinction is really understanding who christ was and following christ versus the institutional aspects of religion that Allow for things it's kind of like the same conversation with food is once you get further away from the source There's lots of deception that can be displaced in, and I think that's no different than religion, either.

When you can take advantage, somebody will always take advantage. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, I think to Harry's point. Something that was important for me, and I still kind of drill this into my own brain, is like, it's important to not, um, equate, like, human error and flaw for God. Right. Because a lot of our, like, we call it church hurt, or like, negative experiences.

Oh, that's the first time I've heard that. Yeah, or someone being like, oh, you can't have piercings because you're a Catholic woman. That's not God, that's a human misinterpreting the Bible and saying that you can't have those certain things too. Right, it's like, Paul wrote two thirds of the New Testament.

Paul was formerly Saul, who was persecuting, he was literally [00:49:00] killing Christians. Right. And then ended up going blind, had a vision of Jesus saying, Why are you, Saul, why are you forsaking me? When this whole Christian transformation became Paul, one of the most brilliant Christian men ever. And it's like, I think that story is so relatable, because it's like, that's what God does.

He can take the worst of the worst and turn you into the best of the best, too. But a lot of the issue is that we equate Human error for God and I think those two things are very distinct and very separate. Does that make sense? No, a hundred percent. This is why I wanted to break this down because I'm like you two would be the best I've thought about a lot because you two would have been the best in my opinion and that was because of the experience we had because I think that word and that's what kind of sparked this conversation when you sparked that conversation with me my brain was on fire and I was thinking about my relationship and what those words mean and because right after I got home and then my son asked me mom what's god I was like karma this is karma right now and I just looked at him and I got down to his level and I looked in his eyes I said you're god [00:50:00] And everything around you is God, and that water flowing is God, and that tree out there is God, and that bird that just landed there is God, and the bees outside are God, and we're all God.

And it, it just means to be a good human. It means to show up for others. It means to love yourself. It means to be kind to yourself, because when you're kind to yourself, you're kinder to others. It means to help somebody when they need help. It means to not, you know, turn a blind eye when somebody's saying, hey, I can't do this.

It just means to show up very differently. And, He just looked at me and went, okay, and like lived his life and it didn't overcomplicate it But I I can't lie. I can't lie to you and I was very fearful of that day Just like I'm very fearful about I mean, he's going on eight Santa and Easter Bunny I'm like, I think this might be the last year So I'm really cherishing those moments, but you know, I I want my son to have a connection to something greater He understands that mommy does psychedelics and mommy goes sits in the jungle and I do have to say When somebody says, once you do ayahuasca, you can't unsee the mountaintop.

And what they're really speaking about, if I'm being completely honest [00:51:00] with you, is That's when you, you realize there's a divine because you sit in the presence of that divine, whatever, whatever people want to say. Religion has a ton of psychedelics based into it. The same way the 12 steps, 12 step program used to have psychedelics based into it when you could take back your own authority and believe in yourself and not just put it on to someone else and psychedelics have had a, uh, a massive base in religion, but we've kind of washed over it because we don't I don't think people really believe that, and when you read, you start to understand, well, there's a lot more in here.

There's a lot more in here, and when you actually sit with medicine, you really, it's overwhelming. I have a video of the last time I did medicine, and I was hysterical the moment Aya, God, walked in the room. Because I so desperately needed that conversation with her, because she is Grandmother Ayahuasca, and she does show you everything, and she makes you feel connected.

And I had felt so disconnected there for a little bit, and when I went again to go [00:52:00] and sit, I just asked that I could talk with her again. And when she showed up, you, you, you literally, like it's that moment where you are in the presence of creation. And once I started that conversation, and I started talking to you about that, It made me realize that I, there's nothing to fear with the word God.

There's nothing to fear. Yeah. Absolutely nothing. And it doesn't have to mean what it meant for me as a child. And it doesn't have to mean, it doesn't have to mean what it means for a lot of people. It can mean what it means for me. Mm hmm. And the second I started leaning into that, and same to, to your point was, the faith in God, the faith in work, the faith in your relationships, the faith in your friendships, the faith in your community, it bleeds.

And it allows you to be this better person. But in ways that you didn't know you were fully capable. And to just trust. We were just having this conversation at the house. And you're like, no, it's a matter of time. I'm like, bro, I don't know why, but like, it's in my bones. And I feel crazy right now. Because I'm like, it's right there.

[00:53:00] And you can, you can feel and have trust and faith in these things. But you don't have to. Be able to see it to have trust and faith That's kind of what it means to have trust and faith in something Yeah, it can't be explained through like a data set or an algorithm It's just like this feel this beautiful intuition that god gives you as well, right?

I would be curious for you Could you ever get get to a point in your journey where like? Could you get that same feeling in worship at a church that you could be on a mountaintop with ayahuasca? And I don't have an answer for that I don't think you have an answer for that But I would be curious if you could ever get that feeling I get that in meditation Hmm So it's possible.

No, it is possible for me. Yeah. No, um, what I would say is that when I started using medicine, it wasn't the intention was to pray with God, it was to work through serious traumas, and what I didn't realize in that time was that when I was working through the traumas, I was being held by something greater.

And the medicine is Grandmother Aya, and so I knew I was being held by the medicine, but what I was devoid of at the time was that the medicine comes from God. Mm. [00:54:00] Right? It's the shakuna leaf and the ayah plant. Well, where do you think they come from, girl? But I wasn't thinking that far because I had such moral injury around that, that I couldn't allow myself to go to that next step and go, but it grows from the earth, therefore it grows from the creator, therefore it grows from the God.

You know? So, um, I don't know that I'll ever be the person that goes to church into a building because I've found such deep connection when I'm I know this is really cheesy, but I found a lot of deep connection that when I'm working with my clients, I feel like things are flowing through me. I feel it when I'm in meditation.

I feel it when I sit down and I, and I'm not even working with medicine. When I ask for the conversations to start, I just had this conversation with my, I call her my spiritual advisor, but she's a medicine woman, and it's like, uh, it's like a screen door, right? And the door's always a half moon open, so I can hear and I can see other [00:55:00] things.

People don't want to say they can see, but I can. And when I drop in, that goes like this, and everybody gets really loud, and I say, one at a time, please. And then one steps forward and we have a conversation, and then the other steps forward and we have a conversation. And I can't tell you, but You guys were such a big catalyst to this deeper thinking for me and this this thought processes and it's been so Different over the past three months like since we spoke you sparked a different depth of thought into this and like curiosity And so in sitting with that the way i've been developing this year.

The trust has been radically different It's like, you know when you know, but i've been texting you and i'm like so sorry, but i've been texting you and being like Do you ever just like feel these moments where it's like there and you know these things are there and they're happening and something's going On in the universe.

It's just like shifting and you're like, yeah It's just this incredible intuition I think the more you lean into it the less you question it you just [00:56:00] Trust, like you said, which is such an amazing thing. And again, I think God powered us with these amazing forms of intuition. The other thing too, is as part of our men's group, we just started reading this book called beautiful outlaw, which kind of redefines who Jesus actually is like in Western, in the Western thought process.

We've kind of, we kind of like overly feminized Jesus in some ways. Like he's a pacifist and he's really kind of like, he's like this badass, like tender outlaw. Yeah. Like not And one of the things that it talks about in chapter one is, um, It talks about like, how do you actually encounter God? And it talks about actually being out in the world that God created, not in a box, like you mentioned, not stare, not talking into your box or staring at a blue light screen, but actually being out in nature.

And it sounds like a lot of those experiences that you've had are probably similar to the experiences that we've had too, of like going on a walk, being in a mountaintop, being with the people that you love. That's where you're probably most likely to encounter God. Yeah, I, I mean, I worked, God, this show is not about me, but you are good.[00:57:00]

I worked with a client recently, I know, God, focus crew, focus team! Uh, I worked with a client recently and I was on a Not Dead Yet retreat, which is really amazing. And, um, we were climbing Mount, is it Mount Helena? Helena and Monte? Oh, yeah. Helena, thank you. I'm just never sure how to pronounce that, so we just go with it.

I actually don't even know. I'm just so confident you said that. I was like, I was like, he has no idea. I love that you know he had no idea, but you went with it anyway. That's a good friend right there. And everyone took off on this group, and I had this, uh, I just ended up walking with this one member of the, that was there, and um, her story was one of the most beautiful things I've ever witnessed.

She was, I don't think she'll have an issue with me talking, but I won't say her name, but she was a very. She was 300 pounds, and she wanted to get to the top of that mountain, and it was snowy, and it was deep, and it was like, we're gonna do this, and first five minutes we got into it, um, she just broke down, she's like, I can't do this, I said, not with that mindset, you can't, I'm a little bit harsh sometimes, and we softened her up, and we worked [00:58:00] on it, anyway, we got her moving, and we would go 10 steps at a time, and then take a break, and then 10 steps at a time, and it took us 30 minutes, Three and a half hours.

And everyone was on their way back down when we were still climbing up. And I saw the defeat in her eyes as they came down. I said, no. Head down. We are, we are so close. And when we got her to the top of that mountain, The belief in herself, The joy in her heart, The, Oh, it makes me emotional because it's like when you see someone believe, Cause I know she is a child of God.

But when you see someone Have faith in themselves

It's It's life changing And to watch her experience that and then to have her come down the mountain and we walked into the Into the house after and everyone was there and I was like, hey guys I just want to reintroduce you to someone she walked in and she goes. Hi everyone. I'm so and so i'm a motherfucking mountain climber [00:59:00] and I was like That right there Being able to, to bear witness and guide a human for a house, I did, I did absolutely nothing.

But I was there. It was, it was just enough. It's to not be alone in these hard things. It's to have networks and people around you like you're a group to show up for each other, to give these opportunities for growth, these moments where otherwise, how are they going to learn? Like, you've walked the path now.

You guys are uniquely qualified to go backwards and help others walk that same path. So for both of you, how has this affected you? Emotionally, because the Bobsy twins live together, and um, I feel like there needs to be a whole series. I want you to recreate Stepbrothers for me, just some of the scenes, please.

Yeah, we're already doing it every day. We just need a camera. You just need a camera, and I'm sure we can sort that out. But how has this relationship affected you both, individually and [01:00:00] together? Because it seems like You're brothers. It does truly seem like you two are on a path together that I don't think you could have gone alone.

Mm. You're both great, but together it's a different thing. Mm. Yeah. It's like one plus one equals 15,000. A million. A million, yeah. A million. Yep. Yep. Yeah, I feel like, and I'm sure you feel this too, I've been having a lot of days where I just wake up and I almost like question, you know, am I actually this, like this?

Lucky to be able to live these types of days. You know, and I, and I know that feeling of. You know, being in New York City or working a job or just kind of feeling like my life was passing me by and being terrified of that. And I remember that intuition that you talked about feeling like I was meant for something so much more and I knew it was going to happen.

I just didn't know what that was going to look like or what that was going to manifest itself into. And when you really feel like, um, you're living in alignment with that purpose, it's just the, it's the best feeling like way being able to wake up every day and say, This is the life that I dreamed of years ago.

[01:01:00] And I actually see this paint this picture that's being painted for me by God. And being able to have like a best friend who's also your business partner. I think both Harry and I realize how lucky we are to be able to have these experiences and build this business. And I think we also have this mindset of like, You have so much time but you also have a finite bit of time and what I mean by that is like I think we Both genuinely know in our soul that We'll be working together forever But this period of time where it's like you're single you don't have kids We're scrapping to make ends meet.

We're living in the same house. Our office is two houses down We're trying to figure out how we're going to pay employees and do this And do that and have this crazy vision in our head that people are going to laugh at like This period of time is such a small period of time So it makes you want to maximize like not every single hour, but every single moment every single minute It's just um, it's just such an amazing thing that I wish a lot of people You Understood that they are they too are capable of having those experiences like I had all the capabilities Three years ago.

I just didn't have that internal [01:02:00] belief that I could Which is why i'm so grateful for harry because I think he kind of instilled that belief in myself Which is what a great partner does I think a lot of us think oh, I need to have the right business plan and then i'll find the right partner And I actually think we maybe think the exact opposite of like when you find the right partner You can go do whatever you want a thousand percent a thousand percent.

That's how I would answer that question What about you my friend? Yeah, yeah, I mean I I just I don't even really know how to put into words like the journey that we've been on the past two years just being able to experience basically every step of the way together and I just I couldn't imagine if it truly feels like we've condensed 40 years of growth into two years just being able to guide Through these like just frankly like challenging moments and wins Transcribed Being able to actually experience that with somebody else and, like, plug in and just, like, want the best for each other because, like, we're working for the same mission.[01:03:00]

I just remember the life before of, like, not having a mission, not having a higher purpose, and thinking about what we have now, I just, like, try to pull gratitude into every single moment, even the moments that are, like, You know, you're looking at a situation you're like this is just objectively bad But like then you're like well, is it like what is here for me?

What what can we learn from this? And I think about the things that we're going through now that are hard I'm, like this is gonna make us insane in 20. Like this will make us like so much better in 20 years. Yeah and For Brett and myself, I just feel like certain parts of us have just blended together in some ways.

Uh, having living, lived together, do over 280 episodes of the podcast together, launch a business together, a separate business together. And there's so much growth in going through these things together in a way that's like you, like we fundamentally [01:04:00] changed as people because we've been able to experience together.

And invest in each other in a way that I don't think a lot of people get to experience where like you have someone who's Fully investing into you and they're going to call you out on things and they're going to push you And you're just going to have like an open window into somebody else's mind where it's like Are we seeing this thing the same way?

So i'm just like incredibly grateful for these past two years like I I don't I just think we're living in our divine purpose and there's just You Like an amazing sense of gratitude with each and everything that we get to work on and all the challenges ups and downs it's it's amazing and like Yeah, I don't I don't think there's anything that replaces true a true fraternal bond like a brother in arms someone who's going to pick up the sword with you every day those days when you wake up and you're like All right, like we'd love to go back to bed We'd love to maybe like not have to face these these things and when you have [01:05:00] somebody else who's just attacking it harder attacking it in a way that like You're inspired to do the same It just it's like oil on on fire.

Like it just like it Is an inferno and I think that we've both kind of lit that in each other like Yeah, brett's just forced me to push myself in ways that like I didn't even think I was capable of tapping into and There's just so much that I would I think these past two years. There's just things i'm like I can't wait to like teach my son this and like pass these lessons down That's the thing.

I i'm think i'm just like so grateful for win lose or draw whatever Happens with all the things that we're working on You It's like, we've been through something that has given me life experience that I, I want to like, pass down to my son and daughters and share with my wife at some point, like, all these things that we're learning are just real experiences and I think for a while I was just, yeah, [01:06:00] not, not getting those.

You know, it's really interesting with you two, um, when you talk about family and growth, because you guys are both in this unique position. Yeah. Your other half lives somewhere else. Do you have another half? He's single! That mustache is single! Um, so. How do you think that's going to develop over time? I mean, you guys are going to have tiny humans.

Are you guys going to be the people that live side by side and homeschool your children? Or are you going to allow them out into the world? We might. There's so many people that homeschool in Austin. Oh dude, everyone homeschools in Austin. So, you could, you could hypothetically just make your wives friends.

Yes. And then you guys could have shared backyards. And you guys could have your wives homeschool. And then you guys could just world dominate. We could. That's a great thought, Kelsey. I'm just thinking ahead for both of you because this is magic in a bottle. So, realistically, you guys are growing something that's going to stand the test of time.

So how do you do that and how do you face these challenges of, you know, what if somebody's spouse wants to move here and you guys can't live together [01:07:00] anymore? How do you Is it going to be the same? Are you still going to be able to be as connected? But because you guys are so unique, it, it just seems like it's going to cause a bit of a shake up.

And I don't think it's going to be negative, but I'm just curious to see how you guys are going to handle this. Yeah, I want to figure out the, I'm trying to figure out the right way to articulate this, because I want to be careful, because I think it is really powerful. I think that one of the things, the biggest thing that Harry and I have learned, because we have a lot of friends that are young, that already feel like they're, like they're wilting away inside, right?

Because they're kind of just living. However they're living is not how they're ultimately called to live, and I think they know they have more potential inside of them, but they're not accessing that potential, so it feels like you're dying this slow death even though you're like 28, 29 years old. I think what we've learned is I think we picked we picked a target We were lucky enough where we picked a similar target And we were like we're literally just going to shoot at this thing and we're not going to look back at all So I think that if most people just sit and meditate they can kind of figure I think most people know Intuitively what that target is, right?

The hard part is like, okay [01:08:00] Shooting at it and being like I'm not gonna stop until I hit this thing, right? Right. Yeah, that's what's hard is there's no hack There's no book it's literally just like I have to just do the hard thing and burn the ships and accept the fact that there's Probably going to be a lot of pain associated with that until I actually hit that goal right I think that's what the last two years has been is like Taking something like this raw piece of clay and refining it to something beautiful and we're still in the process of doing that but part of me saying that is I think harry and I have enough trust where You If Harry wanted to move somewhere, or I wanted to move somewhere, I think we've Develop such a base that even if we're not in person all the time we are now We would still be able to operate at a really high level Yeah but I think part of what we learned through shooting at this target is like your universe is very malleable and you can kind of bend the universe to your will and what you want and I think we're both in the mindset Of like we want to be able to raise our families together We want our wives to be friends like we want to craft that ideal Experience with our with our families and have our kids be friends together So I think it's [01:09:00] this blend of like flexibility where if someone does want to go somewhere else We're going to have like lock sync communication, but also I think we have this ultimate vision of being able to just be in the same area forever and like have our families be integrated and be super close and kind of be like one big family in a way.

So when you're dating, are you all, are she also being introduced to the wife to see if they'd be a fit right off the bat? Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. If Dana doesn't approve, come on. Yeah. Yeah. Dana's got high hopes for Harry. I'm, I'm optimistic for you. I know who I'm going to get a text message from after this one.

Nice. A lot. A lot of women. He's an eligible bachelor. He's an eligible bachelor with a mustache like that. Yeah, but one of the other things I really respect about Harry too is, um, like, since I've seen him turn to faith, he has, like, uncompromising values with the partner that he wants to be with as well.

Which I think is such an important thing, and I think you know it with your husband. Yeah. And I'm experiencing it with my girlfriend Dana, it's like, When you meet that, like, you should not comp I don't think you should compromise on anything with that ideal [01:10:00] version of your partner, and they exist. And I think that's something that I see with Harry as well, where it's like, like, shoot for the highest caliber that you can.

Like, you have one shot, like, go for the best partner that you can. Yeah. There's no, like, what's, what's the worst that's gonna happen? You get told, uh, we're not a fit? Yeah. I mean, I get told I'm not a fit all the time. Yes. It's fine. It's just part of the journey. It's fine, Ariel. No, it's fine. You have to, you have to, it's part of the journey.

But also, I think, ultimately, when you're staying true to you, that right person will show up. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like, when you, when you know, you know. Like, I fundamentally believe in that. Um, but to answer the question that you originally asked, I think one of the things I've been thinking about a lot recently is just finding spiritual mentors who can help us navigate some of these harder decisions like, like what happens if you guys like are in two different places.

But like, I come back to what Brett said, it's like, when you find someone that you actually like genuinely just like, trust and want to do life with, right, why would you not just [01:11:00] like, I almost feel like it's just a pull instead of like pushing it like we're just being pulled into this. Life that we have now where, you know, we're just trying to hit that target.

So both of us see the same objective and we'll compromise. We'll continue to like find what that middle ground looks like. But I just, I firmly believe in finding people who can guide you through hard decisions and people that you trust to lend some Uh, advice, and people you can confide in, and I think keep that group small, but like, if you have a really good group of mentors, they can help you guide through that, so, like, there's just people I'm seeking out in town, and I'm like, hey, like, can you help me figure out how I can, like, set stuff up with Brett, so I can invest more into him, so that we're both just, like, continually to be on the same page, cause, Like I think we would be naive to think that like what we've built so far is amazing But it's only gonna get more complicated.

It's only gonna get harder I'm like the bigger things are bigger opportunities are gonna come down the road [01:12:00] and Like this will be a conversation. I come back to to check myself and be like, yeah You just gotta like you're as long as you're committed to the same thing. Mm hmm, and you guys still Like, are in agreement on, like, where you want your lives to go, you know, you can always make it work.