MAFIA MOMENTS: Meat is a Superfood with Dr. Shawn Baker, Dr. Anthony Chaffee, and Judy Cho
Download MP3What's happening, Meat Mafia? Welcome back to another episode of the Meat Mafia podcast. On today's episode, we are releasing another mafia moments podcast. This is our podcast we're that we release every single Friday at 5 AM, and this podcast is specifically designed to synthesize some of the information that we've put out there already. We've done over 300 podcast episodes.
Speaker 1:We've covered a lot of ground, but from my perspective, there's so much content that we are trying to weave together that these Fridays give us a moment to reorganize and actually put some of that information and repackage it just so you guys have a chance to go back, look at some of the work that we've done, and go revisit it, go deeper, learn more. So on today's episode, I actually pulled 3 clips from or 4 clips actually from 3 of my favorite podcasts that we've ever done on the show. First with Sean Baker, then with doctor Anthony Chaffee, and then with Judy Cho. So 3 of the most prominent Cornwall doctors. And the reason that I chose these 3 was I I really think they give a unique perspective on health in general, really about reestablishing our relationship with food through an elimination diet and through prioritizing nutrient density.
Speaker 1:So some of the things that you will hear as these guys talk and, you know, I will I will be interjecting here, in between all of these clips. So the first clip you'll hear is from Sean Baker. And one of the things that Sean brings up is just this idea that a lot of people feel like they need to have a peer reviewed study in order to try the carnivore diet and how a lot of people are just getting themselves healthy through trying the carnivore diet because of anecdotal evidence that they've heard other people having success. And I know from having lived with Brett and worked with Brett for the last 2 years and hearing his story a 1000000 times, it took him a long time to realize that his health was in his own power this whole time when he was Brett was dealing with ulcerative colitis. For years years, he was going to the doctor and not getting answers.
Speaker 1:And, ultimately, he ends up hearing doctor Sean Baker on Joe Rogan's podcast, and he starts to experiment. He starts to experiment with the carnivore diet. And lo and behold, within a few weeks, he's actually getting off his medication. The medication that cost him $400,000 a year, he's getting off of it, and he's starting to realize that diet and lifestyle can actually improve his life and improve his health. So I think this first clip is so imperative to understanding the nature of these these, diet principles and how there is a lot of information out there saying that you shouldn't eat all meat.
Speaker 1:There's also some information out there saying that you should. And a lot of people can benefit from just going through the process of experimenting if at the very least, it just gives you the information that you need in order to make more and more informed decisions. So this first clip from Sean Baker just is a great indictment of this whole philosophy around experimentation, not necessarily needing all the different scientific studies in order to just get going and start to see improvement in your health. So without further ado, Sean Baker, this is a great clip, and I will be talking to you guys in a little bit after this clip. Talk soon.
Speaker 2:The problem with that is it works so well for so many people, and the cream won't rise to the top. And I, you know, I I I see that you know, obviously, I see it every day. I literally do consultations, every day of the week, and a week does not go by where I don't get a whole bunch of vegans, ex vegans. It's it it is telling me that diet wrecked my health, and I'm trying to rebuild all the things that I lost, you know, whether it's sarcopenia, dental health, autoimmune issues, gut disturbances, skin issues, you know, whatever, mental mental clarity. They find that they improve with with an animal based diet just just over and over again.
Speaker 2:So there's something there for sure. When the science catches up to it, you know, it'll probably be a while. We've got some studies in the literature now that are showing. In fact, you know, it's interesting because there are not a lot of carnivore studies out there. There are several that are now been published, and every single study that's been published on a carnivore diet shows extremely positive results.
Speaker 2:And so if you wanna have a hypothesis, the hypothesis you should have is based on all the anecdotal reports, the science that's out there so far, some of the historical information that we know with certain societies that were mostly animal based, that animal based diet is clearly healthy. Instead, we choose to use standard American diet, burger and fry heaters and say that's what meat meat eating is when when that's clearly the case.
Speaker 1:Alright. That Sean Baker clip was phenomenal, and we're gonna follow it up here with another clip from this episode that we did with Sean Baker. And and I'll link to the full episode of this conversation with Sean because I actually think it's that good, and people should go back and listen to the full thing. But one of the things I love about Sean in particular is just his ability to break through the diet culture, pervasive, obsessiveness, dogmatism, tribalism around food. It is crazy to me how cult like we get around food, and I know this is funny coming from a guy who has a podcast called Meat Mafia Podcast, but hear me out.
Speaker 1:Our nutritional philosophy here on the Meat Mafia Podcast is to follow nutritional wisdom, to understand that nutrient density is the core foundation to any diet. Eat the most nutrient dense foods, fill your body with foods that are full of life, that give you the nutrients that you need to thrive, to have healthy hormones, to have great energy, to build muscle, to have longevity. All these things are should should not be dogmatic. They should just be characteristics of a healthy diet, and I honestly don't even like using the word diet. I just I think we put so many bells and whistles, around our, dietary choices, and I think we should just call it, like, chasing nutrient density.
Speaker 1:You should just be following the most nutrient dense foods, and for whatever reason, that just so happens that meat is some of the most nutrients scent nutrient dense foods. So, you know, take that for its worth. So, yeah, without further ado, another clip from the Sean Baker podcast. I'll check back in with you guys in just a minute here.
Speaker 2:You know, honestly, I don't really think so. I mean, you know, I I I was never particularly dogmatic to start with. I you know, there were people out there saying, you must do this and you must do that. I'm like, I don't know, man. I just know people eat a bunch of meat.
Speaker 2:They do well. Let's start with that with that assumption. And I and I really haven't changed much. I know there's people out there saying that you've gotta do this. You've gotta include this in the diet and, you know, and and I just just don't find any evidence that that that compels me that way.
Speaker 2:You know? I haven't been dogmatic about you have to eat grass finished beef. I haven't been dogmatic that you must eat x amount of organ meats or now there's people that's saying, well, you must include, you know, fruit and honey and all this stuff. And I I just just don't see the the the data that supports that in a general way. Now now individually, sure.
Speaker 2:Do what do what's gonna work for you. I think meat is a superfood. I think everybody should be eating it. I think we should be eating more of it, not less of it. I think protein's particularly important.
Speaker 2:Fat provides some essential, you know, essential nutrients plus an additional satiety factor, and, you know, you can overeat fat for sure. You can overeat calories. You can get fat on a car more diet. It's pretty damn hard to do. You know?
Speaker 2:Like I said, you can OD on anything. You can OD on water, but it's hard to do. I mean, it's much easier to OD on heroin than it is on water, you know, from an amount standpoint. And certain, like, certain foods are easier to over consume a little more. You know, go crazy on meat is not one of those.
Speaker 2:It's pretty hard. I mean, I would say, if you took a kid and fed him nothing but meat his whole life and let him eat as much as he wanted or she wanted, I doubt you'd ever see a kid get significantly overweight doing or or obese. I mean, certainly obese. And so, I'm I'm pretty confident to say that meat is a pretty safe and healthy food, and that's really that's really the essence of this. You know?
Speaker 2:Like I said, even in my book, which I wrote, you know, I I started writing it 4 or 5 years ago. I mean, I said, look. You know? If you need some carbohydrates to to perform, maybe you do. Go for it.
Speaker 2:It's not it's not it's not a it's not a it's not like veganism, and and I'll use veganism as as an ideology or as a diet, which most people, they will say that vegan is not a diet. It's an ideology. Mhmm. Cornifer is not an ideology. It's just basically, you know, eat some meat and and focus on your health and and do what you need to do.
Speaker 2:And that and that's that's always been my message, so I can't really say I've been specifically, going changed significantly from that. Yeah. I mean, is there a benefit from, adding fiber to your diet conditionally? You know, I'm not I've never been one to say all vegetables are toxic and can poison, and no one should eat them. That's never been my message.
Speaker 2:Now, certainly, some people don't do well with vegetables, and certainly there and, clearly, there's toxins in all fruits and vegetables that are there. And and do they bother you? Yes. Some people, it does, and so it's worth considering limiting, cutting back, or eliminate, you know, if you need to. I I really I mean, when I think about I mean, I think, you know, honestly and I've given these people credit so many times.
Speaker 2:The people that started this zeroing on health Charles Washington and Amber O'Hearn and, you know, the other folks and Kelly Hogan, those people that I mean, these are people that aren't scientists. They're not PhDs. They're not nutritionists. They're just people that figured out, hey. I'm eating a bunch of meat.
Speaker 2:My health issues are going Mhmm. And I think they've got it right.
Speaker 1:Sean Baker absolutely bringing the heat. I I genuinely I I love that clip that we just played because it speaks to the core of some of the things that I think a lot of people miss. And I talked about this a little bit earlier in the podcast, but just the simplicity of adding more meat to your diet because the protein is beneficial for muscle growth. The fat is essential for nutrient absorption, nutrient uptake, for better and higher quality energy and hormone health. The cholesterol helps facilitate and build higher quality hormone health, and you don't even need to get into the science.
Speaker 1:I love that Sean just keeps it simple. Eat some meat, improve your health. And you know, we can over science all this stuff, and I I really just appreciate the simplicity of the message. We really don't need to overthink it. And I think when people have reached the pinnacle of health, they aren't even thinking about health.
Speaker 1:They're just living a lifestyle that feels very much in flow. And if you're a listener to the show and you're struggling with your health, I think that what I just said is something to earmark where when you're beginning, there will be a lot of friction, and there will be a lot of mental energy that goes towards making these changes happen. But over time, as you work through some of these nutritional philosophies, some of these health and lifestyle changes, you should become more and more aware of your habits, your biases, your tendencies, and ultimately gain a control that allows you to unplug from the lifestyle of having to constantly be worrying about your health. So just something to take note of if you're early on in your journey, it's perfectly normal to be fixated on improving your health. But eventually, something should shift, and you should you should feel a a higher awareness around the food that you're eating.
Speaker 1:And I think that's actually a core reason why the carnivore diet is so powerful because it can break a lot of the preexisting relationships, habits, dietary patterns that you have with all sorts of other foods. And then you slowly start to reintroduce those and see yourself actually operating from a position of power with more information, understanding what affects your body, how your body is actually interacting with the foods that you're reintroducing. I think it's a really powerful sentiment around food. And, I just really enjoyed Sean's perspective here. So now the podcast, we're gonna be shifting into, our podcast with doctor Anthony Chaffee.
Speaker 1:This is, a golden nugget again. I'm gonna let doctor Anthony Chaffee talk here, but I'll check back in with you guys in a minute. This clip was from our podcast with doctor Anthony Chaffee, and it's an absolute gem.
Speaker 3:You know, some people call it like the first fad diet, the the Salisbury diet. But, you know, you can't call something a fad diet if you've been eating it for 2,000,000 years. Right? What you've been eating for 2,000,000 years is by definition not a fad diet. A fad diet is, you know, restrictive.
Speaker 3:You're not eating what you should, and you're not getting all the nutrients nutrition you need, and you're you're very restrictive, you're limiting, and it's it only lasts a short period of time, and people realize, oh, that was a bad idea, and you move on. Okay. So 2000000 years, obviously, it's not a short duration, and it has everything you need in the proportion that you need it because it's what we're designed to eat. And, eating plants and certainly eating processed foods, that's the fad. That's new.
Speaker 3:We've always been eating meat. You know, that's established. Plants, that's the fad. And so I think these sorts of books are excellent reminders of that. There's even a more recent one by doctor Voechlin called the stone age diet.
Speaker 3:That was in 1975, and he was a gastroenterologist, and he argued that humans were carnivores. He was like, look. We're carnivores. This is what we're supposed to be eating, and, you know, sort of the first paleo diet, the stone age diet, and, you know, sort of the idea of a paleo diet. We should be eating what paleolithic man ate.
Speaker 3:Well, he didn't eat a bunch of roots and tubers and things. He ate meat when he could get it. And certainly during the ice ages, there wasn't really anything else he gets. So you got meat or you died. And so he, Vokland Rock wrote the book, the stone age diet, and he just made that point.
Speaker 3:He said, look, we're carnivores. Here's the evidence for that. And there are diseases like I would treat in gastro gastroenterology that don't would not exist if you didn't eat plants. Basically made the argument, you know, to paraphrase that if, you know, that his profession is of gastroenterology, his specialty didn't need to exist if you didn't eat plants, and that's something that that you've noticed yourself. You know, I'm sure you've had your fill of gastroenterologists, you know, throughout your life, and then all of a sudden you stop eating plants, and I I don't know if you've ever needed to see one again.
Speaker 4:No. I got, I think the last time I saw him was 2021. That was my last colonoscopy. Haven't had to go back. I've been completely drug free for over 2 years.
Speaker 4:I'm the only patient. And out of the thousands of patients that he's worked with that hasn't had that happen before. So I said to him, I'm like, do you want the playbook of what I've done? Because it works super well for me. It's worked for my friends, and also I have autoimmune issues.
Speaker 4:And he's like, now if you wanna send it, you can, but didn't even care. And I'm like, you've seen thousands of patients over 20 years. Don't you wanna know what could potentially work to get these other patients off their drugs? But just totally mindset. So I tried not to argue it too much, but I do think about that a lot.
Speaker 3:That's really sad. You know, it's, I you you do see that. I mean, you would you would hope that doctors would react like my my mom's doctor did when she reversed her diabetes in 2 months. Wow. And you just said, you know, diabetes is a progressive disease.
Speaker 3:It only gets worse. We mitigate it. We can slow down with diet lifestyle medication, but it only gets worse. It does not go backwards, and and she did. She reversed it.
Speaker 3:She came off her medications, came off her insulin, and, and her h b a one a one c went down to normal levels within 2 months. You know? And so her doctor was like, how the hell did you do this? This is not supposed to happen. So she was very interested.
Speaker 3:She was like, I want I wanna know what happened. I wanna know what you did. So I I would hope that more doctors do respond like that, and some do. Some, you know, to give them credit and others others, unfortunately, that, yeah. You know, if you didn't learn it in residency, if you didn't learn it during your specialization or during medical school, it means it doesn't it's not real.
Speaker 3:It doesn't exist. Because obviously, you would have been taught everything that's real, and this is this is, you know, the scientific endeavor and everything. But but, you know, forgetting to realize that most of what you learn in medical school will be obsolete by the time you finish medical school. And the things you learn in residency will be built upon, improved upon, and changed by the time you finish residency. You know?
Speaker 3:And so it's it's ever evolving, and and you can't sit still. Yeah. And and if you observe a massive improvement, someone says, hey. I did this very different thing, and I got very different results. You know, it behooves you as a medical practitioner to investigate that.
Speaker 3:And I think more people will, more people are, and I think when more clinicians, you know, get more and more interested in this and look at this and try this with their patients, they're like, oh, crap. This this actually works. Objectively, this is improving their diseases and their health. They're gonna be influencing more and more of their colleagues as well, and and at least it's gonna be more heard of. And so maybe by now, our diet's making a bit more mainstream news.
Speaker 3:More people are doing this and that your your gastroenterologist will go like, you know, I had that patient. He really improved on this. You know, maybe maybe I should look into it. Hopefully, eventually, they'll come around.
Speaker 1:Alright. So here's the thing. I love that clip. And one of the things I love most about it is the fact that you hear doctor Anthony Chaffee and Brett go back and forth about their experience changing their health, specifically, Brett. Brett changing his health, going back to his doctor, telling him about these dietary interventions that he had, telling him about these lifestyle interventions that he started to create for himself, and then the reception from the doctor being let me learn what he did so I can apply these other patients.
Speaker 1:And I think it's disheartening, but I do believe that this is merely just one data point. This is a single point of reference. I'm sure there's tons of people who have doctors out there who are interested in learning about how these lifestyle interventions, these dietary interventions can actually get people healthier. So what excites me is that these stories are getting out there, but I do think it's really cool hearing Doctor. Anthony JP talk about just the concept of the carnivore diet not being a fad diet.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of people have heard about it in the past few years, and maybe it's been rebranded or repurposed as this like new diet. And it couldn't, that could not be further from the truth. The fact that we have been eating meat for 2,000,000 years says a lot about the fact that this is not a fad, it's just a way of being, this is how we are evolved. This is how we have, been designed, this is how we've been designed to eat, so, yeah, I think this that that clip just really speaks to a number of the themes and topics that I love discussing on the show, which is what can we do within the system within the existing system to start to break some things in a healthy way, to wake some people up, to create these chains, these changes, and create agency within our own models of thinking and start to experiment with ourselves so that we can develop our own playbook and our own directive around our health and give information back to our doctors and give them a new perspective because science is slower than we think when it comes to changing the narrative.
Speaker 1:And we heard that in the clip earlier with Sean Baker. It takes a while for the scientific community to catch up with the times and how things are adapting. And honestly, a lot of the scientific evidence out there in terms of publications is really, really run by where the incentives lie and where the money is actually being put into the system. And a lot of the study these studies are just quite frankly done by institutions that have either a corporate backing or some sort of vested interest in the outcome of the study. And there isn't really a group out there that's doing a whole lot of carnivore based studies or animal based studies.
Speaker 1:And so there's not a whole lot of data out there on it. So you need to get these anecdotal stories from people like Brett, from people like doctor Anthony Chaffee and his mom reversing her type 2 type 2 diabetes or from people like Shawn Baker talking about having intervened with 100 and thousands of patients and creating context in that way. And, you know, I think that that that in itself should be enough data information for people to actually go out and start to experiment and try things for themselves, under the guidance of some sort of medical professional. But I do think that there is a lot of re there are a lot of resources out there for people to start experimenting and start to take their hell into their own hands, which gives me a lot of hope because ultimately, the power lies in the individual. And if you wanna get healthier, you gotta take ownership of that.
Speaker 1:Alright. So next, we have a clip from our podcast with Judy Cho. And I'm not just I can tend to speak in a hyperbole sometimes, but I'm not just saying this. One of my favorite podcasts of all time on the show. Judy has an incredible story of transforming herself.
Speaker 1:She was working in a consultancy job. Her health was as poor as it had ever been. She's following a vegan diet. And really, she was at the end of the road when it came to her health. She was struggling with so many different things from mental health issues, from autoimmune issues, and just not experiencing life in the way that she knew that she should be.
Speaker 1:And so she was battling serious, serious depression, and it all clicked for her. And now she's one of the biggest proponents for meat based carnivore carnivorous diets, putting meat at the center k. At the center of her diet. And one of the things I love about Judy is the fact that she's a mother, she's practicing what she preaches, and she's also feeding her kids in a healthy way so that they thrive. And so you'll hear in this clip so many great little pieces of, value from Judy, but also just her take on saturated fats in general.
Speaker 1:So I'm gonna I'm gonna pass the rock over to Judy, let her do her her thing, and then I will, see you guys in a minute.
Speaker 5:We need the saturated fats. I mean, one is most of our every single cell of our body, the outer layer, most of the outer layer is, require saturated fats. So think about our cell function. It also helps things come in, things go out. Again, that membrane needs to be really intact.
Speaker 5:So imagine if you're just eating plant based, what happens to your cells? How do your how do you function well? The other thing is, I know a lot of cholesterol. This is like one of the arguments that a lot of plant based people tell me, but, yes, cholesterol is produced in your body and the majority of it. But if you have excess cortisol in your system, that's all part of that sex hormone pathway or the cortisol pathway, which is a steroid hormone.
Speaker 5:It is created by acetyl co a and then cholesterol, and then it's broken down into all your sex hormones, including cortisol. And so if you don't have enough of the raw materials and raw materials, meaning foods and fats, it will all get shuttled to cortisol if you are highly stressed. So there goes your DHEA, there goes your testosterone, there goes your progesterone, pregnenolone, etcetera. There's a thing called the pranelolone steal that if you don't have enough raw materials for the cortisol to be created and used, it will use everything it can to produce that because your body is just trying to protect you to make it to another day. And cortisol is what helps you to balance your blood sugar, manage stress, and a lot of those other things and the adrenaline, etcetera.
Speaker 5:Your sex hormones don't need to be there in order to survive another day. Your DHA, your testosterone, these sex hormones, if you're not healthy, you're not gonna make a baby. Mhmm. And so when we are saying therefore, you don't need saturated fats or you don't need cholesterol, when our bodies are more stressed out than ever and we are using cortisol more than ever, then why not add more cholesterol to support that whole pathway so that even if worst case you don't fix the stressors in your life, that you'll have an abundance so that some will still go to DHEA and testosterone and all the other sex hormones.
Speaker 1:Do you think that the, sex hormones are kind of the canary in the coal mine in a lot of ways? Because I think in the past, like, 30 or 40 years, testosterone's dropped among men by, like, 40%, 40, 50%, and that seems pretty alarming on, like, a systemic level.
Speaker 5:Yeah. I I do think, the fact that all our sex hormones are dropping, and then I'm not the biggest fan of supplementing it. It's just let's get to root cause. Is it the diet? Right?
Speaker 5:You're not eating enough saturated fats. And, yes, I do think if you don't have a level of health, your sex hormones will drop. And that's just what happens because your body will always, again, prioritize today and you don't need your sex hormones. You don't need your thyroid to be functioning optimally. You don't need good hair.
Speaker 5:You don't need good skin. As long as you can survive today. And what you need is enough cortisol to survive. And so that's the part where I also think a lot of the other foods we're eating don't are impacting our testosterone or impacting our gut function that will then break down into these raw materials or nutrients. And I think a lot of the people these days are not eating this, which will then not support these sex hormones, if that makes sense.
Speaker 5:I I get a lot of comments. My boys eat a lot of fatty meats and a lot of fat, and people always say your boys will have so much testosterone, and then think about the opposite of that.
Speaker 1:Alright, guys. I hope you guys enjoyed this podcast. This was one where we synthesized 3 of my favorite conversations that we've had on the show with carnivore doctors. We brought together a little bit of a different flavor from each conversation, a little taste from each conversation. But thread the needle from thinking about a carnivore diet is not just a fad diet, not just a diet.
Speaker 1:This is our designed and innate way of being, which is following our innate intelligence, following this nutritional wisdom that has been baked into our every cell that we have. And honestly, we're about to release a series here in July called Meat is Medicine, and we just recorded the first podcast today with Doctor. Bell Schindler. And one of the things we talked about was this idea of nutritional wisdom and how we have this biological design to chase after nutrient rich foods and how our palate is actually designed for flavor to translate this language of data, this language of nutrient density into the rest of our body. So flavor is really just driving home this message within our our bodies that what is flavorful is nutritious.
Speaker 1:And unfortunately, processed food manufacturers, food scientists have hijacked our taste buds have hijacked this this biological design that we have so that foods that taste good no longer are necessarily nutritious. They're hyperpalatable, and they essentially override our taste buds so that we are getting this flavored this flavor nuke with 0 nutritional value, which would not have been the case in the past. And so I think when we start to rewire our taste buds, we start to wake up this innate, deep, connection with our bodies, and we start to see that there is so much wisdom baked into every cell of our body in terms of understanding what we need, what we want. And that is what we're with this show, trying to get lit up inside of you, get you guys understanding that you have the answers. You can get yourself healthy, you can take ownership of your health.
Speaker 1:It's all within you. It just takes the action. There's takes the steps, the curiosity, surrounding yourself with the right people, getting in front of the right information, and trusting that an experiment will give you information that can make you make better decisions and continue to develop and evolve with your health. So as I leave you today, I'll leave you with one message and one message only, and that is to embrace a little bit of change, to experiment, to try new things, and to constantly be evolving. I think at the end of the day, as long as you're experimenting, testing, and iterating, and trying new things, you will then collect valuable data for yourself to make better decisions in the future around your health.
Speaker 1:And at the end of the day, if you wanna be the captain of your own ship, you need to understand this, this biological wiring that you've been blessed with. And, you know, as the saying goes, you have to live with yourself 247, 365 till the day that you die. You are captaining the ship, so take responsibility of that. Understand how your body works. Understand what works well for you, what doesn't, and start to take some ownership here.
Speaker 1:Alright, Meat Mafia. That is enough for me. I hope you guys have a great Friday. Enjoy your weekends, and we will see you again on Monday at 5 AM. Until next time, Meat Mafia.
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