The Meat Mafia Podcast

Part 1 Ammous
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Speaker: [00:00:00] Welcome to the meat mafia podcast. It's a pleasure to have you. We've had your brother on the podcast, so it's only right that we have, uh, the second brother, uh, in the Amos family. Um, so welcome. Very excited to have you on.

Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you. I'm glad. I'm glad to be on.

Speaker 3: Yeah, we're, we're looking forward to this conversation.

We've actually been meaning to have you on the show for over a year. We've, we've, we talked about this a little bit before we hit record, but. Your, your backstory is fascinating, Ahmad, where you're an MD and you specialize in internal medicine, yet you also are a practitioner of this carnivore, this red meat renaissance, you're a Bitcoiner.

Um, there are a lot of synergies between us and it's very rare to come across an MD in modern society that really sees this like truth sinking, truth seeking philosophy when it comes to currency through nutrition, et cetera. So I think as a starting point. I would love we would both love to learn your a little bit about your background.

How did you get into medicine? [00:01:00] And when did the alarm start to go off that what we're taught around currency and that also nutrition really is not correct.

Speaker 2: Yeah. So I mean, uh, I started off, I wanted my dad's a doctor and I've always wanted to be a doctor like him. I went to med school like everyone else goes to med school thinking, Oh, the science knows how to heal people and they're going to teach me how to heal people.

And I can't wait to learn things. And I go into medical school and, uh, as I was, uh, like when I was first year medical student, I discovered the paleo diet and I went low carb. I cut out the carbs, I cut out the processed foods, and I started eating more fat, and I started feeling a lot better. Not just a lot better, like, it's the better, best I've ever felt.

Energy wise, mood wise, and, uh, It just, I started questioning, so, I'm eating fat, and I'm feeling better. Why are they teaching me that fat is [00:02:00] bad for you? Why are they teaching me that cholesterol is bad for you? And And I started just going reading on Google and it turns out there's a lot of, there's a lot of alternative doctors that are talking about this is that the modern medical system says things that are not completely accurate sometimes.

And I didn't realize how deep that rabbit hole is. And it was actually very difficult because I would go to patients that are really struggling and all my teaching is offering them is just medications that are just, you know, hiding symptoms and not improving things. Even though I would read about alternative practitioners online that are doing things incredible, fixing people through diet and stuff.

And, um, it was, it was, it was, it was a big struggle because at a certain point I thought maybe I should just quit med school and learn things on my own. Um, but I stuck with it and I'm glad that I stuck with it. And I took the free time to just learn about things that actually do help people.[00:03:00]

Speaker: You were saying you kind of, you kind of felt disenfranchised or, um, Disheartened by the medical schooling that you were receiving and looking back like there's a lot of the changes that have happened in terms of the industrialization of basically everything is fascinating, but schooling is one where we're now really teaching.

And this is really across the board. Like, when I look at the agriculture schools, we're now teaching them how to basically just use chemicals on fields, as opposed to how to use nature within itself. To create food and the schooling system in general across the board is just really become a place where you can't Challenge the status quo as much i'm wondering Do you have any experience just like bringing some of the things that you were learning on your own with your own diet and lifestyle?[00:04:00]

to the table in medical school and actually like Voicing some of those concerns like hey, this is actually something that i'm experiencing Very contrary to what you guys are teaching us You

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, for me, it started off with just, I was feeling the best I ever felt and I wanted to just tell my, my, uh, my fellow medical students, Oh, this is what I'm doing.

They're like, you're crazy. Why are you eating more fat? It's bad for you. And, and that was just very disheartening because, you know, it's making me feel good. There's no way you can tell me it's bad for me. And I don't care what your PubMed research shows. And, but in general, the. The sort of culture there is in medical schools, in all of education, but especially in medical schools, is that you don't ask questions.

This is what you're given, you study it, you memorize it, and this is what gets you the grades, and this is what gets you to progress in medical school. The issue is that most, [00:05:00] why most physicians have a difficulty when they start practicing is because all these things that you're taught are not really helping patients.

And so your patients come to you and you're giving them all of this bullshit advice about, you know, just take more pills. And it's not really helping them and they keep coming back and they're very frustrated because you're not addressing the root, the root cause of it. And so a lot of physicians go into medicine thinking, Oh, okay, if I learn all this pharmacology and all this drug therapy, I'm going to be able to help my patients.

But then when they actually go into practice, they realize that it's not doing anything. And that's why a lot of them end up just. pursue money. And that's is right now.

Speaker 3: I think it of what's gone on the las harry and I are both happ end up dropping out and y your credentials because that are credential that the [00:06:00] root causes of why we I think a great example, right, is, you know, Harry and I know a lot about nutrition.

Parents are very difficult, right, to, to influence and persuade. And so even though they see something working with their son, they're not going to listen to me because I'm, you know, a byproduct of them. Whereas if I point them in your direction, who's an MD, that's trained, that has the clinical experience, that's talking about being diet, actually a root cause of being able to cure some of this stuff.

There's so much more likely to actually listen to that. So I think it takes both of those forces. credentialized people like you and then almost like informed consumers like us that are preaching a similar message, but we can attract different pockets of audiences. Um, I w I'm so intrigued by how your colleagues and peers perceived you while you were doing paleo because my thought process would be, okay, you're an MD, you're practicing science.

If you have a peer that is following an unconventional diet, yet they're feeling the best that they've ever felt, and their biomarkers are good, you'd think [00:07:00] that they would be curious to maybe try something on their own, but it sounds like it was the exact opposite for you, right?

Speaker 2: It was the exact opposite, uh, I mean, this is not just with my peers, with everyone, with everyone you sort of, uh, You can't go in and try to change people's mind.

People's minds. If they want to hear the message, they will come to you. And that's sort of just the realization that I made when I was, uh, when I, when I was, when I first fixed my lifestyle. It, it, it really just, every second of my day I'm like, oh my God, I feel like a new human being and I really want to just ev everyone I know, I wanna change them to this.

just, it was just draining because nobody wants to listen. And, uh, at the end of the day, I just realized if people are interested, they will come to me. And unfortunately with medicine, the medical students and doctors in general are some of the least questioning people that I [00:08:00] know. Uh, it's sort of attracts the sort of people that, you know, just follow instructions.

Uh, are good at just learning and memorizing and it doesn't, it doesn't attract many like problem solving and discovering on your own. So doctors just want to follow whatever the guidelines tell them and, uh, and they don't want to question the narrative.

Speaker: How much, how much of this current medical schooling system.

Is driven by just top down thinking from either big multinational corporations, funding studies, or governments who are, have vested interests in like, you know, just not like having doctors, but having doctors who are also supporting the greater system, like how much of this is [00:09:00] a product of. Just really, you know, having a system that is so it's like broken capitalism kind of fueling a lot of like these, um, like sterilized thinking in this, like very basic thinking approach, like, I can't, I can't really think of another way to say it other than just like this industrialized.

Process of like you get into medical school, you memorize certain things. It sounds like this is your experience where, you know, not able to really question certain things happening. And then you get out and you're really prescribing, um, you're prescribing instead of trying to find the root cause. So I'm curious.

Do you think it's like a systemic thing that's coming from top down? That's like, what's the driver there?

Speaker 2: Yeah, and definitely. And I'm lucky in that I have my brother to sort of guide me in understanding this. Uh, but mainly the way it happened is so like 1800s, [00:10:00] there were all kinds of medical schools.

There was. What we c perceive of as modern medical schools, which are ma mainly based on pharmacology and drug therapy. There were other sort of medical schools, uh, one's concerned with naturopathy, one's concerned with homeopathy, one cons concerned with like, uh, natural healing. And there was all sorts of medical schools and.

Uh, different approaches to healing people in 1910, the AMA, the American Medical Association, uh, hired this guy Flexner and they asked him to write a report, uh, basically, uh, analyzing how medical education is in the U. S. Uh, this was their publicized goal to make the medical education more scientific. But in reality, what the purpose of this was is Flexner was funded by Rockefeller, and Rockefeller was, [00:11:00] uh, heavily invested in a lot of the pharmaceutical companies at that point, because the pharmaceutical companies used his, uh, products from the oil industry.

So he wanted to make pharmaceutical medicine the standard of care. So, all of the medical schools that were teaching non pharmaceutical medicines were basically declared illegal and they were shut down. So, most of the medical schools were closed at that point, and only medical schools teaching drug therapy were open.

were allowed. And so that's how the problem started with. You are, you are dictating to physicians what sort of learning they would get. And you're dictating to patients what sort of positions they can go to. And this is where the problem. This is why we are at that point where we are now. Uh, it's all centrally planned that you need to see only a certain kind of physician.

Uh, a certain kind of healing therapy and all the other schools have basically been forgotten or are [00:12:00] only fringe schools at that point. At this point,

Speaker 3: it's actually it's a genius move by Rockefeller and Carnegie because they figured out, Oh, we can make synthetic vitamins and minerals from petroleum. So let me create this type of medicine where I diagnose them as being sick and then I give them vitamins to be able to actually cure whatever maladies that they're having.

And I think at the time, one out of 10 deaths were caused by chronic disease. And now I think it's seven out of 10 deaths are caused by chronic disease that are really food driven illnesses. And I think what I've been fascinated by being on Twitter and deep diving everything the last two years is it almost seems like there are a handful of stories of what have happened over the last a hundred years that almost.

paint the picture of why we're as sick as we are. I think Flexner is a great one. I think Ansel Keyes is a great one. Um, Harry, who is the guy that, that essentially like made farms go really big as well? And I remember [00:13:00] thinking like, is it actually true that a number of these stories are really what's causing 88 percent of Americans to be metabolically unhealthy.

But the further and further we research between the three of us, I think that's absolutely the case. And something that your brother very famously said in our podcast is that you could essentially wipe your ass with most epidemiological studies and even peer reviewed studies. And then when you find out that sugar companies are donating 11 times the amount of money to these universities as the NIH, It doesn't become that far fetched.

Speaker 2: A hundred percent, and it's all, uh, centrally produced propaganda, and, uh, and it's just, this is how it is in medicine. Classically, I mean, the way classical teachings of medicine look, like the way Chinese medicine and Ayurvedic medicine looked at, uh, at healing is that each case is different from another case.

Even if it's the same disease in the same person, the, the [00:14:00] healing, the way you're going to treat them is different. And this, and so that model doesn't apply with epidemiological studies and even randomized control studies with, with medicine. And that's also part of the reason why modern medicine just doesn't make sense for patients.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say that that's absolutely true. And Ahmad, one of the things I wanted to ask you, it seems like it's very difficult from a consumer perspective to differentiate between a good study versus a bad study. I feel like social media kind of allows you to take a snippet of a headline, you know, stevia linked to infertility or red meat incredibly inflammatory and causes cancer.

And you can just repost that to Instagram and Twitter, and it goes insanely viral. And then we become skeptical of certain products. I'm curious, is there a gold standard? Are there metrics of things that you look for, whether you're determining whether a study is good or not, like as a consumer to inform ourselves?[00:15:00]

Speaker 2: Honestly, my, uh, my go to is just listening to people's stories. If people are posting and saying this is making them feel better, I trust that a lot more than any study. And also, uh, most important thing that modern medicine, one of the biggest enemies of modern medicine is that they don't want you to have any more personal autonomy over your body.

Uh, the best measure of if something's effective or harmful for you is how it makes you feel. And once you get to that point, you don't need a doctor. You just have yourself and you have your reason and you have your body and you, you have how you feel. Modern medicine gives us the idea that, uh, no, it's all too complicated and don't listen to yourself, but no, this is the best measure.

See, see how it feels on yourself.

Speaker: Yeah, that's something Brett and I talk a lot about is just the idea of self experimentation and being the end of [00:16:00] one, there's so much noise. And one of the things that I think is really interesting is. In Japan, they don't even let studies get published that aren't done specifically on the Japanese population.

Um, which I think is a great practice and something that maybe like, you know, unique to them, but in the U S. There, there is so much noise with these studies. And one of the things that I've also find interesting is just the number of studies that have been published over the last 40 years, like from nine in 1980, there was 1 million studies published.

And then 20 years later, there's 7 million public, uh, published studies. And in that time period, our health has only gotten worse. So in my opinion, there's. Just this information gatekeeping that's happening to create, almost create this illusion of confusion and, um, making people think that they don't know these answers, that somebody with authority needs to [00:17:00] give them the answers to their own health problems when there's a deep intuition that we understand innately.

Of whether or not things are healthy for us and not.

Speaker 2: Yeah, the, the, the darkest part of this is that out of all my friends, probably my physician friends are the ones least in tune to their bodies. And that just tells you everything you need to know. Because, uh, they're raised in this environment where health is something that's sort of, you're just born with.

It's either a genetic disease or something that you get, and nothing you do in your lifestyle affects it. You're And so it's just something out there that's not my responsibility, and that's how they treat themselves. And so, even when patients that, you know, some patients read online and they tell us, they come to the doctors and they tell them, I've read that doing this diet can help with this.

They're like, no, no, no, don't, just take your pills, basically.

Speaker 3: [00:18:00] Yeah, I would definitely mirror that own sentiment and my own personal experience because when I, when I initially got sick and diagnosed with ulcerative colitis, my doctor literally told me that this is not diet and lifestyle related. You had a genetic predisposition to getting this disease.

So no matter what you did, you probably would have gotten sick. Meanwhile, I'm binge drinking alcohol and eating a ton of processed foods. I'm chronically stressed out. I was the perfect case study to get diagnosed with that disease. And I was just blanket put on biologic drugs. Granted, I was so inflamed that I probably needed them at that point, but had I not taken control of my own health and gone carnivore, I would, I would still be on those drugs right now, getting a blood infusion every eight weeks.

And in the three year period that I had gone carnivore, I would go back for checkups and my blood work would be better. I would look better. I would have more muscle. The inflammatory markers were improving and I would literally say to him, do you want me to give you the playbook of what I've been doing?

Because I think [00:19:00] it could be helpful to your other patients. And he's a good guy, but he didn't have any interest, and I don't even think it's his own fault. It's like, he's just a byproduct of that system that you're talking about. Meanwhile, I think a doctor like you would be like, Oh, wow, I actually have a patient that's doing something against the grain, and he's actually healing, and he got off of his biologic drugs.

Maybe I could apply that to my other patients. It's so interesting.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's, it's fascinating when you read about, uh, physicians historically, that's basically how they used to learn. They used to start practicing at a very young age and people would just come to them and tell them, uh, this is what was wrong with me and I tried this and it fixed me.

So now, you know, you know that there's a certain cure for this thing and then the next guy comes in and tells you something else and that's how you add to your knowledge. It's just, it's so far removed from how medicine is right now. It's, uh, it's sad.

Speaker 3: There's, there's even, um, sorry, I know you were about to speak.

I was, I was going to add one point, even this, this negative [00:20:00] programming around the fact that these diseases are incurable, right? I remember being told that when I was 21, that you will have to be on this medication for the rest of your life, because this is incurable flash forward. Two years of strict carnivore.

I get a colonoscopy. zero inflammation, zero micro inflammation. I'm like, in my, that's the definition of being medically cured. He would never tell me that he allowed me to get off biologic drugs, but it's so interesting how they don't even allow you to be medically cured. Um, even the founder of, of Hugh Chocolate, Jason Karp, he came from the hedge fund space and worked himself to death to the point where he developed some degenerative eye disease.

And so he did a strict paleo diet in the late nineties. retested, right? Because they test your vision to make sure that he's not going blind. He had a perfect 2020 score. And the doctor literally said to him, Oh, we must have misdiagnosed you, right? So that's just this perpetual loop of negative self programming.

And people think that they're never going to be able to heal, even though they lean into the foods that you're talking [00:21:00] about. You can literally get off these medications and be in the best health, the best health of your life.

Speaker 2: They don't want you to be cured because they want you to a customer forever.

Speaker: Mag, what upsets you the most about the current medical establishment?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, probably that we do more harm than benefit. This is the saddest, like there are people that, so I work in a hospital, I'm a hospitalist. My job is to try and just, I manage people while they're in the hospital and my best therapy for getting people to get better is just try and get them home as soon as possible.

Because the longer they are in the hospital, the more things we discover, the more treatments we give them and the more complications they get and uh, they're just in this loop. And I mean, it's, it's. You have to really, [00:22:00] really zoom out. And, uh, most doctors, because they're so in the system, they don't actually realize this, but basically most of the problems you're dealing with are eutrogenic caused by us, by something we've done before.

So it starts off by a stupid thing where you give them a, you check their blood work, their cholesterol is elevated, which doesn't mean anything. And he put them on a statin medication and that causes them some problems with, say they get diabetic. they get it, they get diabetic, you need to do surgery because they have a gangrenous foot, they get more complications from the gangrenous foot and that's, that's, it's just a perpetual never ending cycle and the system benefits from it, makes a lot of money.

Then the patient struggle.

Speaker 3: That's a really good depiction. Sorry, Harry, go ahead.

Speaker: Yeah, I was gonna say, it makes me think about, I don't know if you've heard this speech before, but Dwight Eisenhower had a [00:23:00] speech where he talked about the scientific, technological elite capturing so much of the world. The narrative and the power within the public policy space where they're able to just completely control the system.

And I think it was incredible foreshadowing and we're living through that time period. Unfortunately.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's, it's quite sad. I mean, the, the bright spot is that we have Bitcoin now, and, uh, this is kind of my message is, I mean, it's, it's very dark, but this, the whole, the way the entire system is run, the way the entire system is funded is that, There's this federal reserve that can print money out of nowhere and it's the federal reserve that is funding associations like the American Medical Association or the American Dietetics Association and these are the ones that are [00:24:00] able to, you know, through their money, through their publications, through the the laws that the government uh, They're the ones that are able to, you know, put an alternative practitioner in jail for practicing something that's not, uh, that's not pharmaceutical, uh, shutting people's clinics down for not teaching the right thing, et cetera.

And these people are only able to survive because there's a fake money printer, uh, keeping them alive. And once the world transitions to a Bitcoin standard, which is inevitable, they will lose their power and they will no longer be able to survive. And then it's just a free market economy.

Speaker 3: Ahmad, I know you had mentioned earlier that You're one of your breakthrough moments was actually rewiring your diet through a paleo approach and almost feeling [00:25:00] like your brain was turning on and feeling the best that you had ever felt. I find that for a lot of people, they go Bitcoin first, carnivore second.

Um, I was a little unique where I went carnivore first, Bitcoin second. Was it Paleo that turned you on to Bitcoin or did you, were you a Bitcoiner first and then you started playing around with your nutrition?

Speaker 2: Um, I think, so this was all, uh, so I'm lucky I have an 11 year old brother, brother that's 11 years older than me.

And so he basically tests everything and he just, he tests everything. Tells me what I need to do. So he, uh, he, he, he went down the low carb rabbit hole before he was, he was a gold bug at that point. And then he found Bitcoin, but they are quite, they're, uh, it's, it's very easy to see why they're linked together because once you understand fiat, You just can't unsee it.

And you start to see it everywhere in your life.

Speaker 3: Do you think it's fair to say that beef is the nutritional equivalent of Bitcoin? [00:26:00] Yes. Yeah, we had Robert Breedlove say that on our podcast, and I thought that was such an amazing analogy. But the thing is, is that, you know, we could spend four hours talking about why we're in the current situation.

But I think what Harry and I have been trying to do, and I think guys like you are trying to do, is make you understand that you do have this. sphere of influence over yourself, which can be far more powerful than you realize. And for me, it was eating these really nutrient dense foods, feeling like the lights were turning on for the first time, getting my testosterone, my hormone levels, you know, to be the best that they'd ever been.

And I noticed, Oh, I'm thinking for myself, Oh, I don't want to work this Fiat job anymore. Oh, I'm going to learn about Bitcoin. I'm going to buy some Bitcoin. So it's this amazing asset for my family. And I think that's what's so encouraging is understanding that there are these tools that are accessible to everyone to almost bulletproof ourselves from the fiat bullshit that exists in the outside world, and I think that should give everyone hope too.

Speaker 2: 100%. I think, I [00:27:00] mean, a lot of our health issues too is that people don't have time to take care of themselves, which is also a manifestation of, you know, being in a fiat job and working so many hours because If our money wasn't being inflated, uh, so badly every year, we, we won't have to work, you know, 80 hours a week.

It's only because of inflation and because of fiat money. And once you get rid of that, once, once everyone is a, is a, is a Bitcoiner, You'll have more time to take care of these things. Take care of your body, take care of your family. And that's very empowering as well.

Speaker: Yeah. I'm on for someone who's just getting introduced to Bitcoin.

I think there's a lot of hurdles to get over in terms of fully comprehending it. And honestly, I think most people, it's similar to food, whereas people use money every single day and have no idea what real hard money is. People eat food every single day. A lot of times people don't [00:28:00] even realize. What the food is that they're putting into their body.

And so were there any hurdles for you in terms of wrapping your brain around Bitcoin and what it actually is? Uh, I know. Cipedine is probably the best person you could possibly have in your corner in terms of understanding Bitcoin, but. What, what hurdles did you need to get over?

Speaker 2: Uh, I mean, it's, uh, the, the main thing is that it's just, it's indestructible.

That's, uh, that's something most people struggle to understand is that nobody can ban, nobody can stop Bitcoin. It's just, it's going to survive whether you like it or not. At this point, imagining a scenario where Bitcoin doesn't survive, it's just very, very difficult to wrap our heads around. So that, that's one of the main ones.

The other thing. Yeah, the other difficulty people have I had is, you know, understanding what money is in [00:29:00] that money doesn't have to be something declared by government. Money just has to be something that two people agree that we're going to transacting. So it doesn't have to be a government that approves what how me and you interact because we could interact in any way we want.

And that's another thing that basically fiat, uh, fiat education has, uh, implemented that idea in our head. And it's, it's useful to, to snap out of it.

Speaker: Yeah. I had a really interesting conversation with, I'm going to throw him under the bus. My brother, uh, the other day, he's not a, not a big coiner was asking me a lot of good questions. It was actually a really great conversation, but one of the things that he ended up saying, which I adamantly disagree with is inflation is good.

And I think when you live in the era of infinite money printing, Capital can get placed [00:30:00] without any sort of accountability, and that's what we're living through. We're living through a period of time where risk has been brought down. The risk free rate has been brought down to zero, and capital allocation is going Inconsequential in a lot of ways for many, uh, many people.

And so I think when you look at inflation, it's, it's actually stealing our time away. Uh, I think you said it perfectly and it's not only stealing our time away. It's, um, eroding our health within the current system. So, you know, I'm curious your thoughts on this idea that inflation is inherently good because in most economic schools, There's this idea that inflation is just kind of this natural thing that happens, like prices just go up.

And that's, you know, in a healthy economy, I don't think that's necessarily the case.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I took some economics in college and their rationalization for this [00:31:00] is just a couple of stupid graphs that they show you and a couple of models that they show. But I mean, the, you just look at the incentives and the incentives is they want to teach you this so that they are able to print as much money as they want.

And that's just, once you understand it that way, it makes a lot more sense.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I would like an inflation almost to our understanding of inflation almost being similar to like this aversion to LDL cholesterol and things like that. Like we've just been taught through these very specific parameters. And then when you actually do the research and think for yourself and understand what the truth is, there's no longer fear to that.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. The, the, the analogies in medicine are quite incredible about how many things are taken for granted. And then once you dissect them, they're just all, there's just no basis for them. It's endless.

Speaker 3: Yeah, it is endless.