Chris Lieto: God, Athletic Excellence, and Mastering the Mental Game (Part 2) | MMP #344
Download MP3Alright, guys. Welcome back to another episode of the Em Mafia Podcast. This is part 2 of our episode with Chris Lieto. Chris recently joined the NVDM coaching team, which is a triathlon group here in Austin, Texas that we've gotten really close to. The founder, Natasha Vandermerway.
Speaker 1:She is one of our dear friends and has played an important role in Brett and mine's life. And we're just excited to have Chris on to share his story. He was a runner-up in the Kona championships back in the day, and he has a remarkably, strong faith and incredible mindset. So we tap into both of those topics talking about God, his mental mastery, his the models he uses to master the mental side of performance, And then really just his perspective on life, how to bring gratitude into every situation as it's truly incredible. A great great example of just pursuing excellence in everything that you do.
Speaker 1:So we were so grateful to have Chris on the podcast. And, Yeah. We hope you guys enjoy this part too. And without further ado, Chris Lieto. What, what would you say to somebody who's looking at start to have it stack from ground 0?
Speaker 1:Like, do you think that it's worth running at multiple habits at once? Or do you establish, like, one habit for 15 days, 20 days, and then start to stack another one? Just curious how you approach that, you know, clean slate. Like, how do you how do you think about stacking these habits?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I could share from my from my approach the way that I would do it or the way that I did do it. I'd say about two and a half months ago, I was at the hospital, and I ended up weighing myself just curiosity how much I weighed. And I weighed about £20, £18. Yeah.
Speaker 2:About £20 heavier than I did when I was racing. And I was like, wow. This is the most I've ever weighed. It wasn't, like, overweight, but I was just was my body was just different. And it was kind of like a wake up call of, like, well, what do I wanna I have a choice.
Speaker 2:I have a choice to continue in the process that I'm at, which is knowing that the slower slowly you can creep up and the more that you creep up in weight or health or anything to rectify that is a longer journey. Alright. Like, it just takes, like, 10 times longer to lose as it did to gain. And we could look at it as weight, but it could be health. It can be movement.
Speaker 2:It can be lifestyle, it can be all those things. And so I looked at that and I go, okay. Well, what shifts do I have to make? What choices do I have? And I kinda just went all in and go, okay.
Speaker 2:Well, what are what are the habits I need to gain? It's like, hey. I need to move every day. And and coming from being a professional athlete of running fast all the time or or running with ease, now after not running very much, it took a lot to start running again because I had to small, swallow my pride and my ego and go out and run at 10 and a half, 11 minute miles when I would go out and run easy at 6:15 pace. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And it would be just as easy as running 11 minute miles. So it's, like, twice as slow. And so it's like okay I can do that. I can walk. I can hike.
Speaker 2:I can wear a weighted pack. One excuse to be well I don't have time to do that. Well in reality I do have time and I can do work while I do that. And so walking every day or going for a jog every day or a walk run to start, and I could get on my phone. I could text messages.
Speaker 2:I could make phone calls. I could do emails while I'm doing that. Walking's easy. And so I walk around the area and then choices for food. It was like, okay.
Speaker 2:Well, let me just cut out. I just went all in. I was like, I'm gonna cut out packaged food. I'm gonna cut out chips. I'm gonna try to eat just, like, clean, and I'm gonna improve my, increase my protein intake.
Speaker 2:So how much protein can I eat every day? What carbs can I drop? Not just carbs, but choices of carbs Mhmm. Which is packaged food, breads, certain breads. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's just like I just started stacking as many new habits as I could and kinda went all in. But that can overwhelm somebody too. Like, oh, I gotta shift my whole life. That just seems so difficult. To me, it just didn't it doesn't seem that hard.
Speaker 2:I think maybe that's what has always propelled me to kind of move move fast and move furious in trying to accomplish something, but, yeah, I would say yeah. A lot of it is just just starting the momentum.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So whatever that momentum is for you, that's the easiest that you can gain, a new view and a new belief of who you are by seeing results. So you see a shift in results that affirms your potential of what you can accomplish, and it shifts your belief, and then you're gonna take more action. So you start with smaller stuff and it builds up to a larger, more more things that you can add to it. Like, one of the best books I've read is, atomic habits. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:So you guys read that way. It's such
Speaker 1:a Yeah. Book.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's like I would tell anyone who wants to do a a shift. Like, you just ask that question. I would say, read that book and just follow it. It's not it's not that small habits every day, and you just do that stacked every single day.
Speaker 2:It's where big big shifts happen.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. Yeah. I think it's really good applicable advice, you know, even just learning it. I think we get caught up in the number of levers we need to pull, and should I be pulling this lever or that lever versus just, like, picking one lane and trusting that the rest is gonna take care of itself. Like, for me, I know that if I can just start running in the morning before I do anything else, like, before I'm checking my phone, before I get into the office, I'll feel so good getting that sweat that, oh, I'm more attentive on my sales calls.
Speaker 3:I have better energy. I'm more responsive checking in with employees. Like, I'll start eating cleaner too. I'll start going to bed earlier. I just know that that one thing is gonna trickle into all these other buckets versus trying to, like, over optimize.
Speaker 3:Like, just pick that pick your pick your one lane. Yeah. It could be nutrition. It could be exercise. It could be whatever it is, but, like, you will see see those compounding benefits over time.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Just simplify.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Stacks. Yeah. I'd say one of the biggest things I did, I started probably 2 years ago now, and I did it religiously for probably a year. And now I do most of it without thinking, but there are things that fall off that I get aware that I need to go back to.
Speaker 2:But the process was, every day before 10 AM, if I could accomplish these cat these these items or these habits in these categories. So one was my faith. One was relationships in my family. The next one was health. And then the last one, the 4th one was business or finance.
Speaker 2:And so every day is 2 things in each category. So with my faith, can I get up and can I can I have a quiet time where I just reflect and actually listen to what God wants to speak to me versus just asking questions? And then can I read the scriptures and, have him speak to me through that? So it's like prayer and reading. So intentional intentional time.
Speaker 2:And that could be literally 2 minutes, could be a minute. Mhmm. But if you're intentional in that minute or I had I had mornings that would literally go 2 hours. I was getting up at 4 o'clock in the morning in the dark. Having my own quiet time, I'd go out in the dark in the in my backyard, and I would, like, I would have worship music in my ears, and I would just pray and just, like, wait and listen and meditate.
Speaker 2:So meditation is in that and those types of things. So those were 2 things. And then next would be, my family and relationships. How can I have intentional connection with people every day? So with my spouse, how how as far as can I have a connection with her that is reaching out out of what she needs, to connect?
Speaker 2:And then can I do that with my son or my daughter or a friend? That's important. So continually just being intentional about putting time into relationships. So that's 2 more. And then health and fitness.
Speaker 2:If I wake up every morning, what's the first choice I make in food? So what am I gonna have for breakfast? What are the choices I'm gonna eat or if I'm intermittent fasting or if whatever those choices are that I do that everyday. And then the next one was I exercise. Break a sweat.
Speaker 2:And all this is done before 10 AM. So ideally for me, it was always done before like 6 or 7. And, so that workout could be like I don't have time but I can do 10 push ups. Or I can do 10 air squats. So there's, like, no excuse for anybody that's that's hearing this.
Speaker 2:Like, well, I can't do that. I don't have time. You can make time just be intentional in creating that stackable habit day after day. And then with, with finance or business, it was learning something new every day. Can I learn something each day that's gonna move me towards whatever direction or avenue I want?
Speaker 2:So it can be learning something about my own personal growth, about coaching people in the psychology or life or triathlon. It can be about business. It can be about marketing. It can be about anything. So if you listen to a podcast, read a book, read a blog, there's a million things you can do.
Speaker 2:You can take 30 seconds or you can take 3 hours. It's your choice. And then planning. Like, am I plan what's my day plan like? And making sure I can look at that and go, what what do I wanna accomplish or who do I wanna reach?
Speaker 2:Or what's the outcome that I want in that day? And so doing all those is just checkable things like you said. 2 in each category, each of them can take 2 minutes. Yeah. Mass.
Speaker 2:It can be less than that. Right? So you just do that day after day, and before you know it, 6 months goes by you're like, holy cow. I'm a totally different person. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Or 2 months goes by or 2 weeks go by, and you're just creating a new habit. So that's, that's 8 8 habits every day. So diving in with 8 habits, you break them up in those buckets. It's actually super easy.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I love that. How important was that quiet time for you?
Speaker 2:Massive. Yeah. It sets the tone of Monday. I had to start with that one. Like, for me, I couldn't I could extend some of those quiet times in working out.
Speaker 2:So I'm gonna go for a run in learning, to, like, a sermon or a talk or reading the word or the scriptures while I'm running. I can continue to be in that space. But for me, it's like my habit is, like, I would wake up in the morning, walk out out my room, drink a glass of water, a full glass of water every morning. For a while, it was no coffee, and then I started to I go back and forth with coffee. It's like a love hate thing, but, so hard to give you out.
Speaker 2:Yeah. For a long time, I never I never drank coffee when I was an athlete at all. Didn't drink at at all. And then I started living in Hawaii, but so anyway
Speaker 1:did you notice any performance increase?
Speaker 2:No. I say decrease. Mhmm. Decrease in energy throughout the whole day. Short term, a little increase of just feeling like you have more energy, but that's a whole another topic we can get into.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, waking up having a tall glass of water, would make a cup of coffee, would put my headphones in, and I would go into this one room in my office, and I would sit down with the lights off still. And I would just sit and listen to worship or listen to I started listening to to instrumental where there was no words. But I found I started getting guided by whatever worship song was being played and the words that they were singing or speaking. And so I was guided by that to where it would go to versus, like, just being present and letting go of stuff. So then it just started being instrumental type things that just really allowed me to just meditate, reflect on my thankfulness for him and how much love he's given me and the experience and under and trying to understand that because for so long and I still don't know the the depth of what that is and how to experience that because it's not tangible.
Speaker 2:I'm like, you can't touch God. You can't touch Jesus. You can't he's getting next to us, but he's not actually sitting next to us. So how do I have a conversation with him? And so for me, just mentally, emotionally, dealing with depression, dealing with a lot of stuff, I had to start my days that way.
Speaker 2:And it just centered me, gave me perspective. He showed up a lot. And, yeah, they helped me guide me in my decisions every day on how I was gonna live out that that day. And I didn't do that. It was always harder day.
Speaker 2:For me.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's amazing how, simple but profound a lot of those things that you stack every morning actually are. And I think about this too, whether it's, like, how good I feel after reading a little bit of scripture or doing, like, a 15 minute guided Bob Proctor meditation. How amazing I feel, and how easy it is to let that stuff slip. But if you just set them as nonnegotiables where they're not there's not really a choice.
Speaker 3:It's just, like, this is what Chris does every morning when he wakes up, what that leads to over time. And to your point, it's like, it could take 6 months to be a totally different person. But even sometimes for me, just doing those things for a week, Monday to a to the next Monday, I'm like, I'm already a different person too. Like, that's how quick it could take.
Speaker 2:Totally. It could happen in one day. Honestly, to some people, 100%.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So earlier in the podcast, you, you mentioned the concept of burnout when you were done racing professionally. And I'm curious, where did that burnout come from, and what would you recommend to other people, maybe their athletes transitioning out of their sport, someone entering a new profession that's kinda, like, disenfranchised with the past just to kinda help them turn the page and get over that burnout and appreciate that all of those experiences, even if it didn't go the way that you wanted, it will lead to the next thing that you're supposed to be doing.
Speaker 2:You know? That's probably a good
Speaker 3:question. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That Another one. That took me a long time to process. It was something I thought I was gonna have no problem with when I stopped racing. I had a nonprofit I started the last probably 3 or 4 years of racing professionally, and it was called, more than sport. It was about giving back and understand there's more to life than our performance and our successes and all those things.
Speaker 2:And so in my mind, I understood. But when I had to, like, deal with it when I couldn't race, I didn't know what my other options were. Because it's so interesting as, like, I remember having this dialogue with myself, post. It was, like, a year or 2 after. I tried to run more of the sport for a few years after, and, and then I was finding myself, like, what's next?
Speaker 2:Like, what do I do? And it seemed like I had a lot of options but I didn't have a lot of options. I felt like I had to pigeon myself in certain areas. Like if I chose to and wanted to go work at Starbucks, I'm like I can't go work at Starbucks. Like what if someone comes in and sees me and recognizes me from my success as a triathlete?
Speaker 2:And they're like, oh, what are you doing with that Starbucks? And so the story I told myself is I was limited based upon my view of myself, not what other people saw, but what I saw. So it's it's for me, it was a process of like letting letting go of an expectation of of an identity that I thought I had to live up to. And in that identity that I thought I had to live up to, it was hinging on being accepted, Being validated, being accepted, and and through that, it would fill this desire of having worth or value. And I think a lot of athletes tend to compete from that place, of feeling something or thinking by getting there, it's gonna it's gonna provide something.
Speaker 2:Not all. But I think there is if if all of them are are truthful and really reflect deep enough, I think there is a ton of truth in that in everybody that we all desire acceptance, approval, validation. And so this desire for success, it's it's, it's not the money. It's what the lifestyle or what we think that money is gonna give us in experiences or whatever. And so when that gets cut off and then there's no more future for that, then what do you do?
Speaker 2:Because you've been striving for that forever. And it's just having to, like, identify, like, understanding what you're like, who you are. And, for me, it was like realizing who I am as as a person and and that I'm loved. And I'm loved by people and my family in my life. And I'm loved by Jesus.
Speaker 2:I'm loved by, I actually bring value, and it's so easy to, like, minimize it. And when I could start being thankful and notice, yeah, that I have I mean, I think I mean, I still deal with it, that I have worse, that I have value. And, so they're making choices that are it's I don't know. It's such a hard thing to answer, and I can, like, talk through it and try to come up with it. But I think the thing that comes to mind is, like, I don't know.
Speaker 2:You know, everyone's different, and I've tried to figure it out, and I've tried to help guide people, and I think I help guide people to come up with their own answers because everyone's different. But, like, I don't have all the answers. I'm trying to figure it out just like the next guy. I just have experiences. So I've experienced that I've worked and experiences that did not work, but I wouldn't change any of them.
Speaker 2:So it is a process. Yeah. So I don't know if I dodged the question, or I just I don't have the answer
Speaker 1:at all. No. Not at all.
Speaker 3:Is he is it easier for you to coach clients that might be trying to overcome burnout and transition into the next thing?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's way easier for me to, like so being on the outside and looking in and all the practice and experience I've had in doing that, you start noticing start noticing how people communicate and what they say and then what they what they don't say. Like, what's what's omitted. And in that process of what they say, you can start for what you hear, you can start guiding them to come up with the with the answers for themselves. And it's so much easier just to guide somebody else through.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, it's, it's a fun journey. I love it. Because I love seeing people have breakthrough because I think it's because I understand and empathize with being, stuck or feeling hopeless or feeling challenged and how that can how that can consume you on a daily basis and freeze you from moving forward in one category or multiple categories of your life. And so if I have an opportunity to walk with somebody through something that they're being challenged with and see a light bulb come on where there's hope and realization of what truth is, then that's what keeps me going. And that's what I get excited about.
Speaker 2:And understanding me dealing with the challenges that I've had in my life and I continue to work with, the best way to heal that and to grow through that is by helping others walk through that same process. So I don't have it figured out, but I have a ton of experience in my own life and a ton of experience of other people and walking and seeing what works and see what success comes from in that. And I would say success success in life. And for me, so much of it is more and more every day of how do I let go? How do I let go of an expectation, let go of an of a judgment or feeling I'm gonna be judged, to let go of, like, what my value is on an hourly basis or a daily basis, and let go and just say yes to things that show up.
Speaker 2:Like, for you to ask me to come on this podcast, it's like, yes. I'm just gonna show up. Yeah. I'm gonna talk without having an agenda, and I'm gonna speak truth, and I'm just gonna just lay it out there and something will probably come out of this. But if I had an agenda of, like, well, no.
Speaker 2:If I, like, qualified your podcast first or qualified whatever, like, what are we gonna talk about? Make sure it fits in my agenda. Are we gonna touch this point or that point? Because this is where I wanna go with my business. And no.
Speaker 2:It's just I just wanna show up. And every time I do that and every time I let go and show up, comes back, like, 2 fold and comes back way better than I expected, and doors just keep opening up. So it's like for me, I believe that comes from letting go of my own identity of who I think I need to be and understanding the identity that I have with Jesus and following him and what he the example he gave in scriptures and how he came and lived. I mean And, Yeah. Just love him, love myself, and love others to be one day at a time.
Speaker 1:Do you find that your coaching style is coaching from a biblical perspective? And does that resonate with people who maybe aren't followers of Jesus yet? Like, do those principles do you see them start to, like, actually lead people down the path of success? Because I I think it's a power I I came across this concept of, you know, biblical leadership in business, and I think it's incredibly powerful. And I think you could probably go run a business without, you know, the employees really even realizing that you're applying, you know, scriptural scriptural and biblical concepts into the business.
Speaker 1:But I think it's even more so powerful when they do realize that. But I'm curious, like, you know, you as a man of faith, do you see those principles going into your coaching style, and then are they landing with people who who aren't believers?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think I would I would and answer this way is, like, the the Bible is the Bible, and there's a lot of scriptures in that. And I believe, like, Jesus came, and he, he came to be an example. And the gospel is not the Bible. The gospel is Jesus.
Speaker 2:So it's a, can I live a way of living out the gospel? And the gospel is to to love people, to die to self. Some people would say, it's about having relationship that like in business about having relationship that are horizontal relationships that you equal to. So if I'm a boss or if I'm a leader, if I'm a husband, how do I be equal to my partner equal to my employees, without being a hierarchy of, like, I'm the leader, you follow me. And then there's always this fear of the person above.
Speaker 2:And so if I can live from that place of loving people and and, caring for and giving in that for the best interest of the relationship and the best interest of that, then, like, letting go of business expectations or holding on to, like, grudges or, expectations or whatever. I I mean, I don't even know where I'm going on this except for the fact that it was like it does relate, but the scriptures and Jesus' example was about loving others and just showing up and not, yeah, just not falling into what the world says is important. Yeah. And I think in business, when you show up and you do that in your business or you show up and do that in relationships, then everything everything works out. And speaking, like, speaking truth.
Speaker 2:It's like speaking our feelings. Like, so many times we end up speaking from a place of worrying about what someone else is gonna feel. Mhmm. Or in reality, is it really worry about what someone else is gonna feel? Are you gonna worry about what someone's gonna feel about you if you speak truth about something in business or about how an employee is showing up?
Speaker 2:And so if employee is not showing up and I don't say anything, does that serve that person or serve our business? Does it? It ends up being stuck and end up building resentment. You start, like, looking at ways, like, complaining about the person. Like, maybe I need to get rid of this person.
Speaker 2:And that relationship may go on for, like, 6 months, and you haven't done anything about it and it's just created eating away of the business and the culture in in that versus if you address whatever came up in the beginning and you speak truth about it, hey. This is what I'm experienced of how you're showing up and doing in a way of, like, not belittling or shaming the person, but saying, like, this is how I see you showing up, and I know that you're more than that in this situation. I hired you because I know that you have the skill set to be able to do this. Are you willing to, like, step up and and do that however you wanna walk through it by walking through of speaking truth about it? And if it's coming out of a place of love and not frustration and anger, then that person's gonna respond back Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And be willing. And if they're not gonna respond back on it, then it's not your fault. It's not your responsibility how they feel and how what they experience. It's their own responsibility how they're gonna respond to that. Right.
Speaker 2:And you put it back on them. But it all comes from the intention of trying to, like, elevate the relationship and that person and how they how they experience life and how they're experiencing your workplace and what you're bringing. Like, what's the purpose of your business? Make sure you're falling in line with that. What's your aim?
Speaker 2:What's your purpose?
Speaker 3:I find that with confrontation, most people, I think, are good at identifying the problem. It's actually confronting the problem head on and worried about how that person might react or the negative ramifications or blowback that might come from that conversation. That's that's the resistance a lot of people feel. For you, do you have anything or, like, a framework that's worked for you to have those difficult conversations or just get better at having those things? Because I think that is such a valuable skill set and something I'm still working to get better at.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It takes daily it takes practice, and it comes from, like, taking risk in the beginning. So I was talking to someone about this actually this morning. It was just, like, identifying, like, having to step into a a hard discussion. Or I'll say this is that we have an if we have someone that we care for and someone comes to us, that person comes comes to us and expresses something that can come across as belittling or not believing in you or or doubting your process and what you're doing.
Speaker 2:You can take that as a negative. You can take that as, like, well, this person this person is is not seeing my value, and they're shamed. I feel guilty. I feel like I'm doing a bad job. And you can just sit with it and receive it.
Speaker 2:Or inside, you can look at it and go, how do I how do I respond back to this person to to task? We could, like, we can edit all this stuff. Right?
Speaker 3:Yes. Oh, for sure.
Speaker 2:So I started going down a path, and I'm like, that's not it's actually not what the direction I wanted to go. But, yeah. I think the biggest thing is, like, when interesting. When I'm learning and continuing to grow in this place of where I feel like if something comes to my spirit or comes to my gut of, like, this is really uncomfortable and I don't feel like sharing this. I've identified over time that entering something that is uncomfortable and risking being vulnerable to what that person may think of me or how they're gonna respond, if I'm willing to enter into that into that pain and discomfort, not so far, 99% of the time on the other end, it is always been a blessing and has always drawn that relationship closer and has draw has brought more fruits, more experience, more love, more connection, more success, whatever in that if I'm willing to to push through the discomfort.
Speaker 2:And that discomfort is usually an emotional discomfort of how someone's gonna view me or how I'm gonna affect somebody. And so if I'm willing to let go of that and speak from a place of, like, this is what my experience is. This is how I'm experiencing. I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong. I'm not calling you out.
Speaker 2:I'm just like, this is my experience. By doing that the first time which was hyper scary and almost sweating, well, and then coming through and actually having them respond in the opposite way I thought they were gonna respond. Instead of them being defensive, they were actually open.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And actually grateful for the experience and grateful for the for the the point out or and then through that, then it stacks the the more I do it, the more it keeps proving the opposite of what I thought was gonna happen and always comes out good. Me. And so then I start recognizing, alright, if there's things that make me feel uncomfortable about my own life or about a situation, if I'm willing to, like, speak it or experience it, if it's always coming back good, then I'm gonna start seeking those things out. I'm gonna start entering it. Let me test it.
Speaker 2:If I feel uncomfortable in a situation, do I actually share that? My old habit would be like, no. I don't share it. I just hold on to it. I don't want someone to know that I'm vulnerable.
Speaker 2:I don't want someone to know that I'm faulted or I'm not as good as I thought I was or they can perceive me wrong. If I'm willing to risk that and see good come out of it, well, then let me keep testing it. Let me keep trying. So it just came over over time. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean Seeing what results.
Speaker 1:We, we had that men's group this morning. We were talking about it before the show, and, this conversation came up. We're having difficult conversations with your your significant other. And the funny part was, like, it was exactly what you're talking about, which is, I feel like for a lot of times we can go out of those conversations with fear. But if you go into it, just knowing that maybe you're the person who like plants a seed of something and maybe it takes time for that seed to actually turn into something.
Speaker 1:Like it's not maybe not received on the surface. And that's, as you said earlier, like on them. But I think for me, my internal conversations that I know are gonna be challenging. I've always struggled with that. Like, maybe I'm not the one who like this conversation starts off and it's like good from the start.
Speaker 1:Like, maybe I'm just like giving the hard piece of advice and then they're not receiving it. And, like, that's part of it. What is
Speaker 2:what's the fear that comes up for you when you when you think about having a conversation?
Speaker 1:It's more so, like, letting pea yeah. A little bit of people pleasing probably, and then also, yeah, like, fear of hurting people probably too. I mean, it's probably baked into that, but what what would what would people pleasing be? Like, trying to, like, sugarcoat things and and honestly, like, yeah, not maybe not telling the truth. Like, it's it's a form of, like, not telling the truth because you think you're gonna hurt somebody.
Speaker 2:So does it is the root of it that you were you're gonna hurt somebody's feelings?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Probably.
Speaker 2:And what's what scenario can you not give an exact example, but can you think of a or if you wanna share exact example of of a situation like that that comes up either or
Speaker 1:who has to share? He I have one for business, but I'm probably not gonna share that one. Yeah. Actually, I I mean, I think, like, in business, there's been moments, like, with hires and with partnerships where it was, like, pretty clear that we probably needed to have a harder conversation sooner than we we ended up doing it. And those there are many fears behind that, but I think it was it was again, like, something that, you know, really should have been addressed sooner.
Speaker 1:And most of it was, you know, probably, like, some level of coping and people pleasing.
Speaker 2:So what what held you back from having that conversation? Was it worrying about them being hurt by the conversation, or was it about how it would affect the business or how it would create more obstacles and more work for you to do? Like, what was the
Speaker 1:I think all 3. Yeah. Probably, honestly, the 3rd might be number 1. Like, this is just gonna be a a big mess, and it's gonna create a lot more work on top of the work that we know we already have to do. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which is, like, cut is logical, but it's also it ends up delaying kind of the truth of the situation, which is like this isn't working.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the story you told yourself, the belief that you had about that situation was if I speak something out and confront or ask questions about this situation, that it could raise a lot more work and headache for me. It could hurt my bottom line. It could hurt the person. And if you're worried about hurting the person, are you worried about actually hurting the person?
Speaker 2:Are you worried about how the person is gonna view you in the situation, how they may speak about you outside of it?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Probably. All the above. Probably all the above. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so That's right. And so you've got to a point where you ended up talking to the person. By waiting, did it make it easier or did
Speaker 1:it make it more difficult? Worse. Yes. More difficult.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Was there more consequences by waiting? Like, more things that you had to deal with by waiting longer? Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And after having the conversation and walking through that, was it a positive thing for for you and for your business?
Speaker 1:Definitely.
Speaker 2:Was it a positive thing for the person that you had to have a conversation with? Yes. Yes. Yeah. So it's a win win all around.
Speaker 2:But our view, like, you see the pattern. Like, our view is that we look at that and go, well, if I say this to the person, it's gonna hurt and offend them. It's gonna reflect back on me. That person may I may derail this person's life. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Now they're not gonna be motivated. They think they can't accomplish something, and and I'm knocking them at the knees, and I'm kicking them out the door. But maybe someone needs needs a a knock at the knees in the right way because you actually if you could view it, then you actually care for the person and want that person to actually show up in a better in a better way than by actually saying something, you're actually helping them. And if you by not saying it and just imagine if you said something in the very beginning. If you address something early, early on when the first thing, the first little thing came up and you addressed it, do you think that that person potentially, it's hard to look back because it's probably stacked and there's a lot of resentments, a lot of things that kind of built up to it.
Speaker 2:If you went back to that point early, early on, and if you had that conversation from the get go, do you think that relationship could have still worked and it could actually have been a benefit for the business?
Speaker 1:Keith. It's tough one? Tough one. Yeah. I think it would it could have worked much better than it did for sure.
Speaker 1:I think yeah. And and to your point, like, I think if that conversation were to have happened, yeah, I I would have had much more hope that we would have gotten to a decision on whether or not it was going to work or not faster because we address it and then they know the expectations now that we've reestablished. And therefore, like, if there was any other time in the next, like weeks, months, whatever, you know, where they are meeting that expectation, it's very clear. Okay. Hey.
Speaker 1:You're not meeting that expectation. Yeah. And
Speaker 2:that's where it's, like, a lot of times we avoid having a conversation with either our significant, the that are our business or business partner or employee or whatever. And if we were to have that conversation earlier, either both parties or one of the party could actually be awakened to something that they were unaware of of how they were showing up and be like, oh my gosh. I didn't know I was doing that. And be willing to be like, I totally wanna shift. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And if you have that conversation early enough, there could there could be opportunity for a shift to happen to where those relationships or those partners or whatever can actually become a benefit in the long run. Definitely. Yeah. So we just don't know what it's gonna bring, but it's like stepping in to the uncomfortable, and having those conversations can actually lead to a lot of growth and a lot of good things that that we're totally unaware of. And it's just we have to shift the story we tell ourselves about how how hard it's gonna be.
Speaker 2:I mean, it is hard. Definitely. Like, doing emotional stuff and talking to people about things like this or dealing with our own personal stuff. Like, those are the hard things, I think. Like, we talk so much about our society now of, like, oh, we gotta do hard things.
Speaker 2:We gotta do, like, do this crazy hard workout or go do this hard thing that's gonna make us tough because we gotta do hard things. I just believe doing hard things is actually the things that you wanna avoid. We're doing physically hard things for most guys are, like, easy. Yeah. I'll go suffer.
Speaker 1:Totally. That's easy.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But doing something emotionally that I have to walk through or risk and how I'm gonna be perceived or looked at or how I may hurt somebody. That's what's your intention in doing that. And, those things are way harder, I think.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Pressfield talks about that how resistance could even be physical exercise where you think it's actually a good thing for you, which it is. But is it detracting from, like, the critical thing that you should be doing?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Go ahead.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And I think a lot about, Jordan Peterson has that future offering program. So when you're kind of outlining a blueprint for your life on one one part of the column, you make a list of all the things that you should be doing and what that path will lead to in 10 years, and then all the wrong things that you're currently doing and what that path will lead to. Mhmm. And I think the same thing is true for the difficult conversations.
Speaker 3:That's one of the things that we did with, one of these tough business conversations we had to have is, like, what is the future of the company look like if we don't address this issue and make this change with capital and investors and all these people that we brought on board versus, like, actually doing the difficult thing now? What what could that potentially lead to? And, like, once you see that comparison, you're like, alright. I have to just get over this and have this conversation because it will be painful in the moment, but it'll be the best thing for all 3 of us long term.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Good.
Speaker 3:But it's easy it's easy to identify it. It's the the tougher part is what you're talking about where it seems like over time, you recognize that feeling, and you're, like, forcing yourself to run to it. We're, like, I feel this. I'm gonna do it now. I'm not gonna put it off.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. It shifted a few years ago of just identifying, like, if there's something that is that is of pain or discomfort, that there's usually something really good on the other side. Yeah. And we tend to, like, live our lives of, like, going down a direction.
Speaker 2:We hit something that's difficult and challenging. We hit it and go, okay. Let me push in. Let me push in. This is too hard.
Speaker 2:Let me find a new route. And then you push in and you hit another obstacle and you hit another wall. And you're like, let me keep pushing. No. This is too hard.
Speaker 2:Let me go another way. And and freedom in life is actually through all those things, but we try to keep rearranging and where we're gonna go with it. And we don't don't end up moving very far. We end up being in the same place couple years later or couple decades later.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And it's like,
Speaker 2:I don't wanna be in the same place I was decades later. I wanna be in a place that I'm actually willing to push through this thing that's really difficult and and challenging and smash that wall and step through it and see what's on the other side.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Is there a moment in your career that you're most proud of? Sure.
Speaker 2:Be interesting. I mean, the one that comes to mind would be in 2009 at the Ironman World Championships in Kona where I finished second. And it wasn't it wasn't the accomplishment of finishing second. I mean, that was a part of it, but it was the it was the process and and that whole day. How that day started, how I felt at the start of the race, the experience I was having, and then just letting go from the get go of expectation and just responding.
Speaker 2:And some people call that, like, flow state, but I think flow state is just responding to what's in front of you and saying yes to the things that are there and I just found myself just saying yes and yes yes and when I doubted certain things is when is when it I took a step backwards And then I could rebound and I got myself back in it. And then there was another one that I doubted. And when I doubted, it ran away from me. And so 1st place ran away from me and I ended up finishing second. And I don't blame that.
Speaker 2:I don't look at that goal. That was the pivotal point. But it was like understanding the process along the way and celebrating where I finished because it was a day that was filled with so many experiences and filled with so much emotion and so many people around me and support, that that's the way the day was. It was a journey for me. It was really understanding that that was the journey and the process.
Speaker 2:And so that that thing I'm most proud of is how I showed up that whole day.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And the experiences I had in
Speaker 3:it. You were leading for most of that race. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I was leading until and so it's 2 and a half or 2.4 mile swim, came out of the water with the front group. It was a 112 mile bike. About I was at the front of the race, majority of that. Not front front but within the front 4 or 5 guys the whole time until about halfway and then halfway I was on my own.
Speaker 2:So from halfway on the bike of of that, I was in front on my own, ran the marathon by myself in front until mile 20 22 of 26.2 miles. And so at 22, Craig Alexander, he caught me at mile 22, ran past me, and that's where the first Dow came in. And then I regained it, refocused, and ran up to him and ran on his shoulder for the next 2 miles. So he ran side by side for 2 miles and so until mile 24. And then there was this voice in my head that said to attack him, and I feel like it was God who was showing me.
Speaker 2:Like, he spoke to me a lot that day just in my experience of just letting go and hearing him guide me what I should do and how I should show up. And in that moment, I felt like he said to attack and like drop him. And instantly, my my doubt was I can't drop Craig. He's the fastest runner in the sport. And so I tried to attack him.
Speaker 2:He's just gonna counter attack me, and I run the risk of totally cracking and blowing up, and I could finish temp or I could fall apart and not finish at all. And so I quickly measured the risk factor of all that, and I doubted and I didn't I didn't attack. And within 5 seconds, he attacked. And so he and I wouldn't say he attacked. He just started pulling away.
Speaker 2:Like, he didn't, like, surge hard, but he just, like, all of a sudden, the separation started happening. And then all that doubt and fear came in in me, which then doubt and fear that you have in your mind is gonna project on how you perform in in your body physically. And so then I slowed down, and he got 30 seconds up the road, 45 seconds up the road, and he sat there. And I regained my composure, my belief, and understanding, like, I can still win this thing. And there's a whole gamut of things that were in that, in my head during that period of time.
Speaker 2:And watching him only 45 seconds up and seeing him turn around and looking back to see where I was, and I could see that there was doubt in him and I was like, this is my time to attack or this is my time to keep going, like anything can happen. There's only with a mile left to go. And, yeah, coming down and around the corner, obviously, he ended up winning but anything was possible and I kind of hung in there because the guy that was behind me was getting pretty close as well. And so he only he only beat me by I think it was less less than 2 minutes and at 8 out 8:8:20 or something like that, you said? So, yeah, so some of those those two times of doubt, there's probably 3 times, 3 or probably no more than 4 or 3 yeah, 3 or 4 times that whole day where there was like doubt that set in.
Speaker 2:And when those doubts set in is when I I lost certain things. And those last 2 were things that cost me and that last one especially cost me and that was like less than 2 minutes. It's nothing. And so just like how well can you stay focused on the positive things and all and not allow fear to shift how you perceive your performance or how you perceive yourself or how you show up and are willing to take a risk. If I was willing to risk, maybe it would be different, but it played out the way it played out, and I learned a ton from it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Do those conversations you must have had on the Kona course would be fascinating. I can't imagine a tool that would teach you more about yourself and
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Racing competitively in something like that by yourself in the ocean on a bike running. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's been a wild journey. Been fun.
Speaker 1:Does it blow you away that your sport, the margin can just be a few thoughts?
Speaker 2:Yeah. If you can. Yeah. It's great. It's yeah.
Speaker 2:And for such a long day. Right? Like, there's only so many opportunities we have in our life. And there's only so many opportunities you have in a race. And are you willing to to seize those opportunities and push into them?
Speaker 2:Or are you willing to take or do you wanna take the safe route and like pause and be like, hey, just need a time out? It's not about like it's not about saying like it's wrong to like pause, but like in a race, in an Ironman it's 8 hour plus race. I started realizing by looking at my watch post race, how many times I stopped. And the amount of times I stopped, like when I would stop, it would stop for like as what felt like 2 seconds. But in reality, that 2 second stop was like a 5 second stop or a 10 second stop.
Speaker 2:And it'll be at an aid station to get more fluid or ice because it was like a 100 degrees out. You're just dying. Right? And you're like, okay, well, I did well. I managed that well.
Speaker 2:And then I'll go back and I look at my watch post race and I'd be like, holy cow, I stopped 10 times which didn't seem like 10 times because you're only like realizing the one time you did it at that moment. Then it'd be like 10 times time 10 seconds and that turns into something else. And it's like so there's all these little pauses that I would make in a race that would cause massive amounts of impact and change in the result. And, yeah, and so like in that race specifically in 09, it's like those couple pauses can shift everything and that's just where we have that doubter thing comes in and so when we have these moments in our life, those moments aren't gonna always be there forever. So if a moment shows up for an opportunity, are you willing to say yes and step into it even if it's uncomfortable?
Speaker 3:Mhmm. And I'm sure there have been moments after that race where you've heard God's voice telling you to attack, and I'm sure you're listening to it now.
Speaker 2:I'm doing a better job of it. It's still super scary in certain things. Certain things, it's a lot easier, but there's certain things that are still have tons of risk involved, and and those are the those are the scary ones. But when I'm but when I am willing to let go of that, it seems like it always shows up in a better in a better spot. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:So I'm just, yeah, trying to let go and show up.
Speaker 3:How cool is it for you as a dad to see your son, Caden, competing at a really high level in triathlon?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's it's, it's a lot of fun. It's fun to see him have joy in it, and there's also this challenge of not wanting not wanting to see him succumb to the same challenges that I had and so trying to like instill wisdom in like how do you pursue greatness or to pursue something that is big without attaching your identity to it and putting pressure on yourself. And so I keep just trying to show him it's about it's about the journey and it's about loving the process. And so he like his goal is he wants to one up me.
Speaker 2:He wants to be world champs. He's like his goal. And I'm like, go for it. A 100%. I'll support you in every way I can.
Speaker 2:And I and I get to coach him right now and I'm the first one to tell him, if there's a coach that comes up that you think that's gonna serve you better and that I believe will serve you better and we have that chance, a 100% you're getting coached by somebody else. Some of the best for him and I can only supply and give him so much from my knowledge. And so the more people you can get involved with, the better it ends up being. But it's like allowing him to push him and encourage him in that process. But at the same time, this is for everybody.
Speaker 2:So in that process pursuing greatness and being the best in the world. But understanding and from the outside, it's so easy to look at him and go, he has
Speaker 1:so
Speaker 2:much opportunity, so much character, so much, relational skills, so much heart, so much intelligence in the way that he sees things, the way he communicates with people. It's like he has all these things that I can see and I'm like, you will be successful at whatever you do. Mhmm. And it doesn't matter about success of accomplishment or making money, but your life is has already seen it to be fruitful even though he's dealt with massive amounts of challenges in these last couple of years. But in that, he will live a fruitful fulfilling life by just showing up every day.
Speaker 2:And if that leads him to be world champ, Austin will celebrate with him. If it doesn't and he doesn't do the sport, I'm gonna celebrate with him in whatever he's doing. And that's a hard thing as like playing the role of being a coach and playing the role of being a dad and trying to navigate those that process. And I'm so grateful to be able to be in the opportunity to do that because we have so much fun doing it. I love seeing him I love seeing him grow and seeing him find joy in it and just trying to encourage him that the the joy doesn't come from the accomplishment.
Speaker 2:It comes from the journey. I've said that a lot of times today, but that's yeah. That's kinda the deal.
Speaker 1:Are there any coaches you'd you'd mentioned, you'd mentioned, yeah, Mark Allen before. Any coaches that you had in the past that you can think back to who really were able to speak to you in a way that shifted your career?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, each one spoke to me in in different ways. Mhmm. Mark Allen was about patience and about the long goal, the long plan. Greg Welch was about having fun and enjoying the process in the moment and going all out.
Speaker 2:Lance Watson was about process and a plan and trying to find like that consistency. Matt Dixon was my last coach. Well, in between that, I coached myself and realized I couldn't coach myself because you can rationalize certain processes in that. I learned a lot and I I could technically but in the midst of it, it's just not wise. So you always need somebody.
Speaker 2:So Matt Dixon and I started working together where he was like my my advisor and overseer, and so we would consult together and work out a plan for me, and he would help guide me. So he helped connect the dots with my knowledge and my experience of what I was doing for 10 years and how to best approach showing up at a race. And so, that's where I show up the best. Now, I'm also just intrigued with success of other athletes and the coaches that are involved in those athletes and learning like what is it that they're doing different or is there anything that they're doing different and being encouraged by so far all the things that I've seen. There's very few things that are different.
Speaker 2:There's just an affirmation and a confirmation of my belief system in how to approach racing and training. And I think the thing that I offer different is I believe if you're if you're a mental and emotional, if you're mentally and emotionally aware of where you are and who you are, then you're gonna perform that much better because there were so many guys that were better than me physically, like talent wise. And there's so many better guys that are out there currently. They're out racing that should be crushing it. And it's usually emotional, mental, spiritual, situational, relational situations in their lives that are holding them back from the best version of themselves of showing up in racing, but the best version of themselves in their life, not just in racing, but that's where the value is.
Speaker 2:Because we talked about like racing will end. Ironman happens. And are you equipping yourself to have the best life you can and actually live with purpose in every aspect? So, you know. It's amazing
Speaker 3:how true that is for business too. These founders that might not be the smartest people, but they just have that emotional endurance and can just go longer and keep that charisma and that positivity when shit seems like it's falling down everywhere. And some of that might be more intelligent but doesn't have that emotional endurance. They don't end up going to achieve what some of these other founders are able to achieve. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I forget. I think it was the founder of the 4 seasons said that, like, being a genius is really just a threshold for being able to take pain at a really high level. Yeah. And I feel like that's true with a lot of the stuff that we're doing right now, and I'm sure you've seen it as well. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, are you willing to suffer through the as far as discomfort and the pain that we've talked about? Right? So if you're willing to put yourself in in in that position often and if you're somebody that is unwilling to give up and to waiver from the reason why you're moving towards something and just keep showing up, keep showing up. Don't let the lies tell you that you're doing it wrong. Just keep showing up with also the ability and the lens of looking at going, is there a better way of doing it?
Speaker 2:How can I continually improve my approach? But never, stopping in that pursuit of that, of showing up every day. And that's just consistency in everything. Like, Kaden can become world champion. He's willing to put the time and energy and process into it, even when the most difficult challenge could come and hit him hard.
Speaker 2:It doesn't mean it's out. He's just already willing to adjust. It's such a fine line because it's just not cut and dry of like, well, if you just pick this goal and you stick to it to the end, you'll accomplish it. A lot of times you don't, but then it goes back to that journey. Life is that journey.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm sure it's a great feeling being his dad too knowing that that trust of, like, whether it's triathlon or business or whatever profession it profession it is that you're confident that he's just gonna be, like, a successful man. Because I imagine as a parent, that's all you care about. It's just making sure I'm raising a really good productive member of society. And then, like, to see him hit 20 years old and be a man and be like, he's good. Like, we did a good job with him.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, he did a good job for himself. Yeah. He gave him opportunity, but, he's his own person. He's, yeah, it's just yeah.
Speaker 2:It's fun to see. Fun to see. Yeah my daughter too my son and my daughter just showing up just amazing amazing humans amazing people that I love spending time with and yeah you see it you see it in them that whatever they do and however they show up they're gonna have a great life And then it's just having that resistance again against the fear of it not working or the fear or the expectation of what it should look like. And, yeah, just yeah. Letting go.
Speaker 1:Such good advice. Is there anything that you hope that they pick up from you or hope that they have picked up from you, as they kinda go into their twenties and start to become an an adult?
Speaker 2:Gosh. I think I think now for me, it's understanding of it's understanding that we're not meant to do it alone. Just life that so so many times I think we go I know I did I just felt like I'll just deal with it I'll figure it out I can deal with a personal problem or relational problem or business problem or whatever like I'll figure it out like I was supposed to be this this man that needs to be tough and strong and smart and I can just like grunt it out and deal with it. But to understand that like it takes a community, it takes friends, it takes loved ones, it takes people to come alongside you in whatever you're doing to help you carry it through and to to share those things, to share the things that are challenging, to share the things you're having difficulty with, and to share the things that you're passionate about, the things that you're successful in, and yeah, just doing life with people. That's what it's about.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:We'll get you most excited about the future.
Speaker 2:I have a phone. Yeah. The, the unknown. The unknown. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So weird. It's like shifted so much for me because before I would give you answers of, like, yeah, these things that I want or these things I think I can accomplish that will lead to impact or lead towards things, but it's like it's literally just showing up today and tomorrow.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And if I do that, I'm kinda like in awe of what it could look like in the future because I think it's gonna look a lot different than what I can dream of. I think it's gonna be way I think it's gonna be it's gonna have glimpses of what I think has already been possible, but I don't wanna put a limitation on it. I just wanna just show up and when I do that, it just is like I said, it comes back 2 fold or 4 fold or 10 fold and so I'm excited about, the next couple days, the next couple weeks, the next couple years. There's some fear that's in that, and there's a lot of risk that's in that. But I know if I keep stepping into it and keep saying yes, that it's, yeah, it's gonna be amazing.
Speaker 1:Well, having gotten to know Natasha over these past two and a half years and really understanding what drives her and motivates her and seeing her go through different seasons of growth, like, we're talking about Mount Bonnell earlier. I just, like, so vividly remember this conversation with Natasha of her and I running just her and I running for 8 miles, talking the whole time. She was doing most of the talking because I was getting passive. Talking about business and where both of us were at that moment in time, it was probably a year and a half ago, to where we are now. And then seeing you know, I remember at the time, it was dealing with bringing on coaches and expanding the coaching capacity of the team and what m v NVDM is building because the community was there.
Speaker 1:Like, there were such a good crew of people that were showing up. The athletes were amazing. But it was like, how does she grow this thing to so to see you guys come together and get to know you better through this interview and getting to hang out a little bit before this, it's like, you guys are gonna I I can seriously see it. It's just it it's gonna be cool to see what you guys build.
Speaker 2:It's fun. Yeah. It's fun. It's amazing the opportunities that are just showing up. Because every day, there's something new that shows up.
Speaker 2:And it's like, okay. Can we manage that? Can we do something in that space? And let's just say yes and and and step into it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And when we do, it just keeps it keeps going. So it's super fun to see what's gonna happen next.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I can see you guys being a good ying to each other's yang because I know she also dealt with, you know, feeling like she went through and and she would she shared this with us on our podcast. I'm not don't feel like out of line sharing it, but like she went through most of her career alone. So I can I can see like that being both of your guys, north star's coaches being like, I wanna be there for people and create that same aligned community? So I'm pumped for you guys.
Speaker 1:It's gonna be sweet.
Speaker 3:Thanks. Yeah. Life's amazing, dude. Like, I don't think we appreciate just what can happen in a short period of time. I mean, even just saying yes to that dinner at Natasha's place on Friday, we got to meet, had a great conversation.
Speaker 3:Now the 3 of us were connecting, podcast, who knows what that'll lead to from a friendship perspective. I don't know. I just I feel like we, we underestimate just how incredible things can happen on a daily basis, just how amazing life actually is. You know? But, but, dude, this has been an amazing conversation.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge, your information, and for the friendship too, man. I'm excited to see what's gonna come next.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thanks, Chris.
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