The Meat Mafia Podcast

Part 1
===

[00:00:00] Should we hit it? Let's do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting the company and getting off the ground was so difficult. It was all just rejections and no's and failures and suffering. I had to write down in the inventory how many times I was depressed. And I just cried because it was 16 fucking times in 12 years. And so it was almost like I perfectly created the circumstance where there was no exterior or ulterior reason to do this other than I felt a calling and I wanted to do this for myself.

And I want to do it. You want to say what the real founding story is? It's me learning to trust myself and me actually believing I'm real.

Well, brother, thank you so much for being here, man. Dude, thank you for having me. Dude, we were supposed to, so, today's Saturday. We were supposed to record with you Thursday. And then we did the Austin Daylight launch party yesterday, [00:01:00] which was incredible.

So we got to co host you and Tristan, the health lead at Daylight. And I think that actually worked out to be better because I feel like we both got to know you even better on that panel, which I think is going to be the perfect segue into the podcast today. Yeah. I, I thought it's, um, I thought it's beautiful for the way you guys like hosted us and held us because.

The energy and values of the host is what we're gonna match and show up with. And so the fact that you allow us to be a version of ourselves that I wish we could be more often, you know, authentic, real, maybe a bit emotional. Yeah. So thank you. How's this, uh, how's this little tour been that you guys have been on?

It seems like you guys have been all over the place and I'm sure people are just getting really excited about the product. Yeah. And I'm still on the road for like the next month. Like I haven't seen home for a while. Um, it's really, it's really fun. Because it's like, you know, if you just do things on the internet and people are like, Whoa, this is great.

Oh, this is cool. Like, you don't feel it in your heart. You know what I mean? Like in your head, you get excited. But when you meet [00:02:00] somebody and you see their smiles, or you see their reaction to the thing, or you see the proof of work, like they buy it, they want to bring it for their daughter. You feel it deeper in your body and you're like, Oh, wow.

You know, it's, it's a, it's a cognition. Like, I think this might help people, but when you actually notice somebody say it to you. You hear it in their voice, feels good, feels really good. Yeah, especially that audience of like concerned parents who, like I think the audience yesterday was a great sample size of who you're probably trying to sell to is people who are pretty far along on just uncovering different like health topics and then they also are like concerned about the next generation and like wanting to actually get this in the hands of their kids who are using technology and want access to the internet but don't want their kids getting torched by.

Blue light all the time. Yeah, it's, um, I sometimes wonder, like, It's one product, but you can almost describe it in, like, six different ways. I feel for parents, all the different ways land together. Right. Like, the privacy, the sovereignty, like, you don't want [00:03:00] somebody spying on your kid. Uh, the health aspects, um, the distraction aspects, you don't want your kid, you know, completely wasting their time every time they're on the computer.

And so I just find that really cool, that like, all of it kind of clicks together, you know. And that was pretty consistent with the demographic of people that were there yesterday, right? It was like, you had the health enthusiasts that were members of Squatch, where we hosted the event, there were Bitcoiners, there were people that were just interested from a tech perspective, there were concerned parents, and it's like, that's what I think is so cool about Daylight, is it's not like this, I think you were talking about, um, you guys aren't trying to be this like incremental SaaS improvement.

You're literally trying to change the way that we interact on computers and tablets by making the world's first blue light free tablet. And so there's such a wide bucket of people that this can resonate with and we literally saw that yesterday. It was incredible. Right. And I think that's why I said like Austin felt like a homecoming because for all these different reasons, you know, we're people in the Valley are like, you're a dilettante, like you're into this, you're into that.

And here it's like. Everybody who's into all of that [00:04:00] is in the same room, into the same thing. And it's like, okay, maybe we're not dilettantes. We just have, we just care about things that we think are important. That, you know, actually all have the same value set, right? It's like picking real over illusory, right?

It's picking that which is proven versus that which is flashy. Yes, it really feels like this daylight tour that you're on. I think the word that I, the description I would use is almost like a rite of passage in some ways and the more that, you know, and there's, I'm still, I want to pull a lot more out of your story, but listening to your appearance on Tristan's podcast, Decentralized Health Radio and seeing you get so emotional on stage yesterday, it was like, it's crazy how you've built this incredibly beautiful thing that we both firmly believe will change the world, but it was really built out of like extreme suffering that you went through.

Thank you. And if you would be comfortable sharing that, I think that would be amazing because I think it just makes you more relatable and it's just amazing how there's this like beautiful world changing technology that I really think is your life's mission that came from [00:05:00] probably like the darkest experience that you've ever had in your life.

Yeah, yeah, you might need to warm me up a bit. Did I just, I just jumped, I just jumped right in. Tell me your deepest, darkest secrets. Throwing the long ball on the first play of the game. Yeah, this is maybe a weird analogy, but, um, I do the same thing when I meet somebody. I, like, just want to fucking go for it.

And somebody's like, dude, it's like kink, right? Yeah. Somebody just comes up to you and fucking slaps you. You're like, what the fuck, that hurt. Yeah. But if they're like, it's like soft and gentle. Yeah. And they're just like, pushing their fingers. And it's like, well, bam! Yeah. It feels good. Right? You know why I think I did that?

I think because I felt like we warmed you up yesterday. Yes. Oh, I do know. I'm a big fan of it. I'm just, I'm just saying it's going to take me a second to get into it. But, I think, I think what's interesting about this process is I feel like if it was less hard it would be easier to talk about. And I don't just mean that from the perspective of like, unprocessed [00:06:00] emotion.

Therefore it's like, hard, because it's like, you know, it's going to spill out like crazy. You I think also it's the nature of it. It's like when you go through something so hard, it's just for you and God. Like you don't need anybody else to see it. You don't need anybody else's validation. You don't need anybody else to know it.

Like you, God, God knows. Right. And so, um, the analogy is almost like, I talked about myself so much on my college application. I'm so passionate about this and I really struggled with that. It was easy because it wasn't like really deep stuff, right? So I could whore it out, right, to get something. And there's almost like a sacredness to the suffering where, um, it wasn't necessary.

Yeah. I think there was a way to make this succeed that didn't involve so much suffering, right? Pain is not optional. Suffering is, as they say. So, um, there's almost like a, deeply personal aspect to it, which was, I almost needed to prove to myself that like, [00:07:00] I'm worth trusting, like, I can trust myself.

Because I can talk the big talk, I can say all the things, but always in the back of my head, a little voice that's like, you're full of shit, bro. You don't believe the shit you're saying. You're just fucking saying it. Right? It's when you're like, you're like, hey man, you can sleep over on my couch. And like a part, like, you know, like, whatever.

Friends going through town, you're like, My crouch is free, man. All yours. And the voice in the back of your head is like, I hope he says no. You know? You know what I mean? Like, you want to say this stuff, but there's a party that's like, Dude, what if I'm full of shit here? Yeah. And so, I think the journey had a lot more suffering than it needed to, because I needed that to have credibility in myself.

You say this matters to you? Like, you're full of shit, man. Right? Like, oh, you want to like, work on something that's like, helpful? Like, fuck you. You just want people to praise you. Right? Like, I needed to actually know that even if no one saw me, even if no one understood me, even if my own family thought it was stupid, my own friends tried to talk me out of it, every investor said this is, [00:08:00] like, I'm nice enough to tell you, but this is like, gonna be a waste of your life.

Other people are just gonna smile and wave, but I'm nice enough to tell you this much, right? And so I needed to go through all of that because there was no source of validation that was external. I was convinced there's like, there's no way this is gonna work. So it wasn't even like money or success or fame.

It wasn't even social reward. And so there was literally nothing positively coming back into my system, which is why I got so depressed. It was all just rejections and no's and failures and suffering. And so it was almost like. I perfectly created the circumstance where there was no exterior or ulterior reason to do this other than I felt a calling and I want to do this for myself.

And I want to know that I'm real. Because the rest of this, you know, everything else around me can be real. But if I don't have that internal [00:09:00] integrity, I don't have that realness inside me. The entire thing is built on an edifice that's broken. Broken at the core. And so I think, you You want to say like what the real founding story is?

It's like me learning to trust myself, and me actually believing I'm real. And the things I say I want, and the things I say I believe in, I actually do. Where did that um, where did that drive to shift your intrinsic motivations? Cause it's, I think everyone at some point in their life realizes that they're chasing some sort of external validation, but not a lot of whole, a whole lot of people don't actually reconcile that and start to bring it back internal.

So when was that moment for you where you said, I need to actually figure out the foundation here and make sure this is coming from an intrinsic place? I think I'm a really sensitive person. I think it's one of my superpowers and it's one of my weaknesses. Um,

and so I think I just feel things really [00:10:00] strongly. And, um, I think I've suppressed my sensitivity for most of my life just so I could, like, do well, like in school, in studies, or sports, or whatever. Just like, you know, you're a pussy if you're sensitive, so just fucking cut all that off and just fucking go.

And that was me all the way until I got into college. And then I finally was like, oh, I can be free. I don't need to, like, please my parents anymore. Like, I made them proud I got into a good college, like, That contract is done, right? Um, when you grow up in an Indian family, your parents sacrificed so much, you feel super obligated.

Um, they're both positive and negative aspects to that. I'm super grateful. It's like, yeah, when I got into college and then I would, um,

I just remember a couple examples where I would go to like random lectures, like famous CEOs and people would come in and then, um, I'd ask a question. And I just noticed in my body, I'm like, I'm not asking this question, like in front of everybody else. I'm not asking this question because I'm [00:11:00] curious. I want to put them down.

Or, I'm not asking this question because, like, I'm really trying to learn. I'm trying to, like, impress the people in the room. And I guess my sensitivity just made it such that, that little twang wasn't just like a little twang, it was like a, getting punched in the stomach. And so the thing, the more I allowed myself to feel and be in my body, the more I had to face all these, like, out of integrity, all these, like, peacocking, all this, like, fakeness.

And it just was uncomfortable, and it hurt, and I felt gross, and I felt ashamed. And so I think at a certain point, I just, like, didn't want to feel that anymore. And so, each time, just a little bit more It wasn't even, like, trying to be brave. It was just trying to, like, not feel bad. And so every time, I would just try to feel myself a bit more and say something.

Okay, that didn't feel uncomfortable. Maybe it's closer to my truth. And over time, just, like, layer by [00:12:00] layer, Um, so it was going, it was going from being somebody who was super in their head because I didn't trust feeling and I was ashamed of it and thought it was feminine and I wanted to be a real man and just, uh, learning to own my body and be in my body, um, more and more over time.

Yeah, I liked how you, um, you described the fact that the sensitivity is actually a superpower to you. And I feel like that makes a lot of sense where you, you feel things on a heightened level. So the downside is like when the lows are low, you feel that probably a lot more than the average person. Right.

You feel good. Yeah, I can't even imagine how good that must have felt to clear the darkness and actually realize that Understand the real reasons why you're pursuing daylight and how you genuinely just want to make the world a better place and help people get healthier Yeah, and you're doing it for yourself and you're doing it for the world and you're doing it for God Like how good did that moment feel when you kindly clear clear through the darkness in the brush?

See, it's such an interesting question because I feel I talk about this with my partner Often, we're [00:13:00] like, I call them like, mini victories. Which, like, no one outside of you gets to see. And even if you did share it with them, they like, really wouldn't get it. But to you, it's like everything. Everything.

It's everything. And then like, the big victories, which the rest of the world praises you and congratulates you, and random Indian aunts you haven't talked to in forever send you a WhatsApp message being like, So good. Very smart, son. Right? Like, Like, that shit that the world recognizes you for. Like, that doesn't really land, it, it, it, it, like, thank you, I'm grateful, you know, it's important, but it doesn't really have that same emotional impact.

And so like, when you say that, immediately my mind is just filled with all these like mini moments, like, I just remember the first time, um, cause, uh, I spent my entire life savings to do this, so I remember the first time when I was able to start paying myself a salary for this, cause we got some first angel money, and I just thought it was the most insane thing that my bank account went up.

Like, the only way it would go up is [00:14:00] I would, like, sell my por whatever small portfolio I had, and, you know, that was YOLOing into tech stocks and put it there, right? But to actually see it Like go up on its own. I just I couldn't fucking believe it. Yeah, I couldn't believe Like it didn't my brain didn't even compute the possibility that building something Wasn't just a pure act of sacrifice top to bottom that I could actually gain, you know, like it's stupid, right?

You like start a company because you're hoping it'll be big you'll get rich It'll did it uh, but the act of it took so long and there was so much sacrifice like I literally forgot You That you can gain from this. I literally forgot that it's not just me spending all my money and all my time and all my health.

And I just remember looking at it and being like, what the f I ain't paid for doing this shit. Dude, most people don't understand that unless they've been in a similar entrepreneurial position of like, And I, we've both talked about this openly, it's like dude, we've [00:15:00] poured like pretty much our life savings into what we're doing now between Meat Mafia and Noble.

Wow. And I don't think most men in particular are open enough to admit the sense of self worth that comes from having that financial security. Oh yeah. And when you, it's like you know you're doing the right thing. Yet you feel this hole where you're like, you know, not that it was anything crazy, but you're like, my net worth was way higher three years ago when I was way younger.

Like, am I doing the right thing? Yeah, you're like, am I, am I, am I out of my mind? And then you're just like constantly getting punched in the face. And to your point, it's like literally emptying your full life savings, getting laughed out of the room. And then finally having that one guy that saw something in you and giving you that first Bitcoin to keep things afloat.

Like. Dude, it's like, I think we use the term, it's been a knife fight. It's probably been more than that. Yeah, it's been a knife fight, a gun fight. Yeah, it's been bare knuckle. How, um, how would you say your relationship with money has changed through the entrepreneurial process? Wow, that's such an interesting question.[00:16:00]

I think in the beginning it was a bit of a fraud. I had like Stanford College Application Essay energy where I'm like, You know, I just like want to help people and that but like dude in the back of my head I'm like, bro, I want to be on Forbes, bro. I can be on the cover, bro. I want to be famous, bro. Like it was bullshit.

I just really wanted to be rich like my dad kind of indoctrinated me when I was like five about Bill Gates So since I was a kid, I was like, I want to be Bill Gates. I want to be Bill Gates. I actually got to meet him. It's a funny story of how I did it. I, like, got to carry one of the flags for a graduation.

And I left the flag and went to meet him because he was on the podium. Uh, so yeah, I'd say in the beginning I was very money motivated, but I hit it. I was just like, no one can know this because they're gonna think I'm gross or this. And so, um, yeah, I was very, very motivated to get rich or successful. And then, um, and then I don't know.

I think there's just like, [00:17:00] um, an itch in me that's always been curious. So I couldn't help myself by always, like, noticing, like, wait a minute, that person who just came to speak, like, is a billionaire, and they just, like, didn't look happy. And they didn't have good answers to, to questions. And they just looked, like, not comfortable in their own skin, like, the fuck's going on?

Right, so I'd, like, read psychology, or I'd take a psychology class, and I'd learn about certain things. And so in a kind of, like, nerdy, intellectual, kind of brooding way, I started to be, like, whoa, what if, like, What if, like, money is not that important? And so, um, yeah, I would just read, like, fucking Noam Chomsky and Sartre.

And I'd read Hayek. I just, like, read widely across the political spectrum. I read a lot of philosophical and religious and spiritual stuff. And it just started to feel like maybe it wasn't that big of a deal, but that was cognitive. Emotionally, I actually was still driven to succeed and make a lot of money because at some deep emotional [00:18:00] level, my being.

was built on this idea, if I'm not Bill Gates, like, I'll never make my dad proud. If I'm not super successful, my mom won't love me. Like, there is like a, a deep need to be successful to be safe. Or finally I can go, okay. Right, like, it was like, I wasn't allowed to be myself until I got into a good college and finally was there.

Then I went, okay. Right, like, there was this need for a checkpoint where I could finally be safe. And it felt like money was that. And so. I, uh, struggled with it, because cognitively I was like, Yeah, this stuff is not going to make me happy. It doesn't really matter. I'm meeting all these rich people who, like, I don't know, they just, like, have a worse life than, like, a bunch of, you know, my family or so on.

Um, but emotionally I still felt like I needed it. I was so driven. Uh, but I'd hide it. It's very, it's just like, I was ashamed of it. Um, and then, uh, [00:19:00] yeah, I think it was just in doing this company. Um, being so isolated from like the rest of society and people, like, spent two years backpacking by myself, like, I had very few friends, um, lived in my parents basement for a while in the early years of working on this, like, didn't date somebody for a long time, like, didn't have any friends, like, literally it was just total, like, isolated loner.

Um, yeah, you start, like, rather than, rather than that, like, ambition or greed or proving self, you just don't want to be lonely, right, like, you start to have other drives. That you're like, I'll, I would choose a friend over, you know, this company being successful any day. Like, I'm just so lonely. Like, that was the stuff that was starting to like, show up for me.

And, um, starting the company and getting off the ground was so difficult. There was just so much self work involved. So, I just remember this turning point. It was like, December [00:20:00] 2020. Um, it might have been December 20th. Something like that. Where I just called my parents. And I was just crying. Cuz I was like, this thing's gonna fail, I'm like, so sorry, I like, I like, wasted the money you put to like, get me my Stanford degree, and so, um.

Yeah, I don't remember if it was for 10 minutes or 40 minutes or something in between, but I just was like, I don't know where it came from. Like, it was like, channeling from a deeper part of me, but it was like, I was like, would you still love me if I was a janitor? My mom would be like, yes. I'd be like, would you still love me if I worked at Checkful A?

And she'd be like, yes. And I just did that. I was like, would you love me if I was a high school teacher? Would you love me if I was a Zamboni driver? Would you love me if I was a tennis coach? Would you love me if I like, graded SATs? And just, I just kept going and going, and I just like, Such like,

it just felt like a, like a really scared, innocent part of me that [00:21:00] just wanted to know that like, I wouldn't be abandoned and would be loved. Just so like, it was almost like, it was just like, let me cover my bases, you know, just in case. And I just remember at the end of that call, like the, there's just a part of me that was just like released.

And uh, I think there was like experiences like that, that started to, like my cognition had changed in the university. But then the, what happened in my body started to change with these experiences. I remember at the end of 2021, um, after I came to Austin, um, this was actually with an Austin investor. Uh, so yeah, we got that Bitcoin, you know, and so on.

Uh, this was right before we got that small angel check that was, uh, it was 150, 000 that, you know, that would, that actually allowed us to, to stay afloat for a bit more. Um, Yeah, this Austin investor and I were talking and, um, we were negotiating how much money he was going to give us and how much of [00:22:00] the company he would take away.

And, uh, it sounds really immature, but it is the truth. I sat there and I just, like, cried because I was like, Dude, if I give away this amount of the company, I can't beat Bill Gates. Like, I can do the math. Like, you know, even if you're the company's real estate, I can't beat Bill Gates. And I love to say it was like, Oh, I'm like losing from like an ambition point of view.

But dude, it was just like that innocent fucking seven year old in me is like, Fuck, what if my dad's not gonna be fucking proud of me? Mm. That was an unconscious thought, but like at a heart level. And I just remember this like desperation of like, Fuck. Like, what if I do everything, I'm still not fucking good enough, right?

Like, that was really emotional. And I just remember, Yeah. I was like in Olympia, Washington. I don't even know why. I was in somebody's backyard. It was like night, and it was cold, and I wasn't wearing shoes because I want to ground even though my feet are [00:23:00] fucking cold. And, uh, Yeah, I just called my dad and I said, Dad, is it okay if I, like, let the company fail?

Because, like, I don't take this guy's money. Because if I take his money, then I can't be Bill Gates. And then I couldn't say, like, you know, the rest. Because I wasn't conscious, but, like, I was just And he's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, yeah, take his money. And, uh, it was so he's just like, come on dude.

Like you worked so hard. Like, of course, don't let this die. Like, there's so much ahead of you. Um, and I just remember being so confused, like, not here, but like here. I just remember being so confused. 'cause I was like, but wait, I've been living like my entire life to like, make you proud, dude, like to hit this goal.

'cause you said you wanted me to do this. Like I'm a good boy. I'm gonna follow orders, right? I wanna make you proud. And I just remember being so confused. I just remember being so fucking confused. And so I think a big part of my [00:24:00] relationship to money was realizing what if I made that story up? Like, what if me as a kid, innocently, like, took it so literally?

They didn't actually give a fuck if I was Bill Gates or if I was super rich or that. But that's what I thought I needed to be to be safe. And so I think in that cycle there was like a big, big release. And just coming to terms with it, I was like, well, this thing's gonna fail, like, I've lost my youth, like, you look up when Nike was started, like, Phil Knight did it in his 20s, you look at when, like, Bill Gates started it, in his 20s, I mean, so, you know, like, I'm like, well, I'm not gonna be 20 at the end of this, like.

I'm done. Okay. And so I just had to come to terms with I'm not going to be everything I thought it would be. And um,

and then I just think the final thing was just like, there was no light at the end of the tunnel. I just so can like, this thing was just so clearly going to fail. And I was just so depressed over and over again. I finally [00:25:00] ended up working with a psychiatrist at a certain point because I got so desperate.

Um, even this past fall I was on three psychiatric meds. It was like not good. I was in a really bad place. Uh, so it's just kind of insane that I am where I am. We are now. Um, so I had to write down in the inventory how many times I was depressed. And I just cried because it was 16 fucking times in 12 years.

And she's like, I can't believe you never sought out a psychiatrist. I was like, I don't believe in that stuff. You know, it's my fault. Like, I gotta will my way through it. She's like, you're fucking stupid. And just to face the fact that I had to get depressed 16 times before I finally sought help and that's how difficult it's been.

At a certain point, when you just, you go through it that much, you don't even think about money or success or girls or whatever. You're just like, I just want to be able to go to sleep, and not like, fucking sit there and, you know, not be able to go to sleep. Like, I just want to be able to watch a YouTube video and enjoy it, [00:26:00] rather than just like, being all like, tense.

Like, I just want to not be depressed. And uh, and so um, Yeah, I just, um, I think I have a reasonable relationship with money now, which is like, I'm like, I'm creative. I can use money. Like, I know how to use money. Like, I love brands. I love research. I love learning about things. Like, I can buy, you know, clothing out of natural fibers or higher quality stuff that I don't need to keep throwing it away that'll last a long time.

Like, I feel like the more knowledgeable one is, the more creative one is. Like, you can find uses for money. So, like, I feel like I'm more open to myself now, like, I do like money and I do find it useful. But I, I don't need it. And I'm not motivated by it. And, um, yeah, I feel like way more at peace. Cause my, my goal is just to be like mentally sound.

That's just, if I'm, if I'm that and I have somebody I love and I'm surrounded by people I love and I get to work on fun stuff, it's [00:27:00] fine. What else could you ask for? Huh? I said, what else could you ask for? That's like the recipe for a good life. Yeah. But like, you know, people have said this. You read the fucking books.

You read, like, people say this on stage. I was like, what a jackass. Like, I never fucking believed it. I was like, shut the fuck up. Yeah. You're just lying. But uh, yeah, I love to say like I came to it through like a positive orientation, but it was just it was beaten out of me This is fucking just just it's just you're just like I just don't give a shit anymore, man.

Yeah Well, I hope you're proud of yourself, too Seriously like six to go through 16 bouts of depression in 12 years to see you now and like seeing you on stage and everything You're building it's amazing from a friend perspective to watch and I hope that you're truly proud of yourself because you should be and And um The Bill Gates story with your dad and potentially the story you almost like concocted in your own mind is really interesting.

And I'm actually going to equate it back to David Goggins because he's someone that's had a huge impact on me and so many other people from [00:28:00] a fitness perspective. And he is very misunderstood, I would say. Because I think people will be like, like, I don't want to run 200 miles. I don't want to run a 300 mile race.

I don't think he's healthy. And what I always say to that is like, it's not, you shouldn't be taking a literal interpretation of what he's doing. You should just be extracting bits and pieces of the things that he's doing well and prove to yourself that you're capable of more. So I almost wonder, my guess, not knowing your dad, is maybe he was just using Bill Gates almost as like, An archetype of like, shoot really high and go down this path.

And I think you've realized now, it's like, dude, I've met billionaires. I don't need to be Bill Gates. I just want to build an amazing business that helps make people healthier. And I know that I will profit exponentially and mentally, spiritually, financially if I do that. I wish somebody told me that as a kid, but maybe this wouldn't exist, you know.

I definitely, if I, if I could, if I would start the company today, I would not. And I don't think I would succeed if I would, because I would give up. [00:29:00] Like, if I'm more mentally sound now. Like, I'm like, I'm not fucking gonna disrespect my mental health and physical health like this to do this, like, fuck it.

Like, I don't give a shit. Yes. But, in a way, um, I had such a low sense of self, I could just put up with so much pain. I could put up with so much, cause, it was almost like, oh, I deserve this, or this is like, This is like, there was no feeling of like, I don't deserve this, right? There was almost a lack of self respect in some ways.

Yeah. And, uh, it was maybe useful at the time, but I, I, I've developed a lot more self trust. Yeah. I think another thing about you two, I would say another superpower. That I've observed is the rawness and realness in, in which you carry yourself and you back that up by really strong proof of work. And I'm curious if that's something you've always carried with investors, people you're trying to sell to build relationships to.

And the reason why I say that is that when Harry and I went out and raised capital for noble is our first time ever raising money. So, you know, we put the deck [00:30:00] together, we were all worried about numbers and being overly polished. Right. And then we started realizing the more conversations we had, we were like, Oh, a lot of our investors don't even really care about numbers.

They're actually just buying into both of us as founders and as people, and they've listened to the podcast and they've heard the raw authentic versions of ourselves. And then as soon as we made that switch, it was like, we raised the money really, really quickly. And it's something that. That lesson is something I think I'll always take with me for the rest of my life.

So I'm curious for you if you had a similar experience or if you're always just been the guy where it's like, I'm just gonna wear my heart on my sleeve because I've been through this and it's kind of like a badge of honor in a certain way, but I'd love to get your perspective on that. Yeah, I think in a way, um, I guess I can be perceived as raw real now because I was the exact opposite of it for so long.

Like, um, I didn't know this for most of my life, but I'm Asperger's. That's Very, very high functioning, so you like can't see it at all. But like super ADHD and super Asperger's and, which are kind of opposites, [00:31:00] which will tear you apart. But once you get it working, it's kind of a superpower. And so, um, what it meant is there's this thing called masking.

We're basically from a cognitive place, you like, model the other person and you act in a way that makes them most comfortable. Cause you are uncomfortable yourself, you project it onto the other and you're like, well, they're going to be uncomfortable with me, how do I make them more comfortable? So basically it meant every social interaction I ever had was fake.

Every single one. Every. Single. One. Day after day after day. Now what that means, Is I have insane stamina because if you're gonna fake every single interaction over and over and over again, like you can handle anything, right? Like you've, um, basically your entire life is just investor meeting after investor meeting, but you're meeting your fucking friends, right?

And so I would, uh, yeah, I would just be very tired, but I would like just keep going and going once again, like didn't respect myself. I was just like, Oh, I'm a pussy. I'm tired. Like, shut the fuck up. [00:32:00] Keep going. And, uh, like self love has been a journey for me. And, um, yeah, I'd say it was fake. And it works, because people, you know, their own shit comes up.

And in a way, sometimes being real, you're worse off, because people's own shit comes up, right? Um, but I would say I was a horrible fundraiser. I, in some sense, I'm a great fundraiser because I was able to fundraise for a company, which basically there's no predicate. There's no similar company that's gotten funding like the, uh, in this type of category in like a decade or more.

The other companies that exist, it's daddy's money or they had a track record or they're experienced. So in that sense, I'm a good fundraiser because I raised money for something that didn't exist. But the on the ground reality was I was, um, I was really bad. Why? Because it was this, like, faking. It wasn't fake because I was, like, trying to fake.

It was more like, I literally thought, this is how you have to interact with humans. Like, I have to be like, Oh, you're somebody who talks like this and acts like that. Like, okay, I'm [00:33:00] gonna, like, do this. And rather than come outwards from, like, what's real here, I would start externally, outside. I would not start inside.

I would start outside and try to, like, be for that. And I think, uh, I'd be like, why do people not like me? Like, why, why do all the investors say no? I think a lot of them said no because investing in the next Apple has a 0 percent success rate so far. Like, that makes sense. But I think some of it too was like, there's something off about this guy, man.

Like, like, I don't trust him, right? And so, um, I think that's why in a weird way, maybe it's a rationalization, I'm a bit of a spiritual person, like, why the depressions happen. Because they had to break me at some core level to just give up, to not try to control. Like, give up, dude. I feel like each depression is just like, give up.

Fucking give up. And at a certain point, you're just so tired, and you're so down, you just stop trying to control the situations, and you don't give a fuck anymore. It's like, it's like you're just like, tired, right? You're just like, okay, I'm like, this is me. Like, that's what's going on. [00:34:00] I feel like, I feel like, um, that's how I started to become more real over time, is I just like, didn't have the energy to try to control every situation.

I just let the cards lie where they do. And so I think I started to become more, more real. I mean, most of my friends would be like, he's fucking full of shit, he's been real for a long time, but my internal experience was just like, control. And, uh, I see that control and real as like, kind of opposites. You know, one's a surrendered thing, and one is like, you're trying to impose on reality.

And so, yeah, I think each depression just further pushed me into being the way I am. And then, uh, This last one, I went through a really bad breakup, and, uh, I just thought the company was gonna fail, and I was gonna lease my immigration, I was gonna lease my house, I was gonna do this, I'm so depressed, I'm not even gonna be able to get a job at Chick fil A, like, I would have to take, like, three or four naps a day.

I would, like, the thought process I was at, I would just be like, dude, if I, like, have to get a job at Chipotle, I have to, like, stand up for eight hours. [00:35:00] How the fuck am I gonna do that? I gotta take like a nap in there? Like, that was my fucking thought process in like October. Like, believe it or not. And so, um, I think something just cracked in me in this last depression, just something deep, just fucking cracked.

And at some level, I just said like, okay, I surrender. Whatever happens, happens. Like, I'm not gonna try to control it. If no one likes me and I have no friends and no partner, like, so be it. Like, I surrender to that. Like, if I'm not successful, I surrender to that. If I'm an idiot, I surrender to that. And so I think at some level now, I just, um, I'm just, I just like, I'm just totally surrendered.

I think maybe that's where the realness or rawness is coming from. Did you see yourself starting to get rewarding, rewarded for some of that surrendering? Because in my own personal experience, I feel like every time I have an encounter with God, where like he's pruning and working on parts of me internally, [00:36:00] whenever I kind of make that shift and just say, look, this is out of my control.

Yeah. Quickly thereafter, there's some sort of, like, reward. Yeah, um, it's funny you say that, because that's exactly what I've been scratching my head about. I'm like, everything that I no longer need, or want, or care about, like, I'm getting. Like, I was just like, I just gave up. I was like, okay, I'm just, I surrendered to being lonely, or whatever it is.

Like, I lost a lot of relationships because of how hard I've been working on the business, and I don't have Usually time for my partner. I just surrendered to like, okay, like I've decided I'm gonna put this first and then like that I meet the love of my life who's like insanely supportive of me doing this right like I thought the company's gonna fail It's like that's fine.

I literally had a call with a with like a mentor where he's like, he's like, here's an analogy Like, you just made a track, right? You're an artist. You just made a track, and you're like, It's kinda like, not as good as I thought it'd be. Like, you had a good vision. You were like, Oh man, if it was like a da da da [00:37:00] da, and like, we just went all in on that, it'd be great.

You listen and you're like, what the fuck is this? And there's like a party that's like, Oh, if I had more time, if I had more resources, if I had the right producer, like, we could make this work. But right now it's like, urgh. Right? And he's like, you're right there. And he's like, what you wanna do is you wanna throw in the towel, Because you don't want to embarrass yourself.

You're like, uh, all your friends are going to laugh at you if it fails and you tried, right? Like, if you try to do this and you run out of money, like, but if you just like, Pack it in before anybody knows about you. No, you don't need to be embarrassed, right? But he's like that's pussy shit man, like an artist fucking ships He's like put that shit up on Spotify Even if it's not good At least you can say you ship something and then go make your next song, right?

And he's like that's what you need to be is you need to stop being like an entrepreneur and you need to be an artist Where you just need to put this shit up on Spotify. And you just, some people might like your song, some people may hate it, and like, shut the fuck up. [00:38:00] It's not up to you to choose. All you need to do is just get it across the finish line and call it an art project.

And the difference between an art project and a commercial one, an art project, there is no need for any outcome. Just the act of doing it is all that's required, right? And so that's how I started to think about this. I just surrendered to like, okay, if it's going to fail, how do I make it fail in a way that's like fun for me?

Right. And so before that we were like running out of money. I was like, I can't hire people. Uh, it's going to fail. But the second I like switched and this happened in October, I was still depressed, but at least I had this, I was like, okay, this is my art project. I was like, yeah, I don't give a shit that we're out of money.

I'm going to hire that guy cause it's really fun to work with them. I don't give a fuck. Like that's my fucking art project. I get to choose how we fail. And, um, it's funny that we're, like, succeeding now. Now that I'm, like, totally looking at this from the lens of, like, How do I want to fail? And in a way, like, all companies die.

It's just an extended form of failure. I think it's still a [00:39:00] similar flavor of, like, How do I want this to fail? Right? And, like, if it's gonna fail, how would I still do it? It's like somebody who has like terminal cancer. They got six months to live. They suddenly start to live their life in a way that like really like, you know, embodies their values.

And I feel like it's a similar thing that I've discovered.